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Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

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Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#11

Post by Someone »

”It is still possible that these newly identified neurons will also be found the brains of primates like monkeys or chimps, Lein says.”

Possible and, in my universe, quite a bit more likely than that these cells are “unique to humans” (cursorily reading the paper, these scientists didn’t even look for this type of cell in anything but humans, but only claim that, if rodents had them, they would have been found there, given the amount of time spent looking at rodent brains)

Disclaimer: I’m not a neuroscientist (but that’s an advantage, too. I don’t have to keep hunting for funding. That removes incentives to sensationalize results)

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#12

Post by adrianN »

buntress wrote: post #6
hyperion2010 wrote: post #5

While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result. Ed is extremely interested in and well versed in comparative neurobiology, and despite the deathgrip that Allen's PR team has on all external communication, the fact that he seems to have approved of the spin is a good sign. Second, the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actua…

Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before rea…

It's a lot cheaper and ethically less problematic to use lab rats instead of apes, so that's what we usually do.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#13

Post by buntress »

adrianN wrote: post #12
buntress wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before rea…

It's a lot cheaper and ethically less problematic to use lab rats instead of apes, so that's what we usually do.

Well, yeah, but ape brains from deceased apes in captivity are probably short-listed for science experiments and not cremation or natural burial.

So it’s probably less difficult than finding a match for an organ donor, no?

I think they have some currency to start a search for samples, with this first stage finding. But really, as we’re finding out, replication will be important too.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#14

Post by hyperion2010 »

nonbel wrote: post #8
hyperion2010 wrote: post #5

While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result. Ed is extremely interested in and well versed in comparative neurobiology, and despite the deathgrip that Allen's PR team has on all external communication, the fact that he seems to have approved of the spin is a good sign. Second, the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actua…

>"While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result...the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actually sampled the population in L1 sufficiently in other species." What do you mean by "sufficiently"? Did they check in any animals? Did they provide a list of criteria that, if met, allow definite identification of these cells in…

This paper did not check. This was a purely human study. I'm talking about known results in the field.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#15

Post by hyperion2010 »

nonbel wrote: post #9
buntress wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before rea…

I had some old pictures of stained rodent brains and saw something looked qualitatively like what they described in the first (and only) image I checked. Since they dont give any definite criteria for me to compare against, what can I do?

Well, they give about the most definite criteria they can given current techniques, which is the transcriptomic profile. In fig 2e [0] they also give a bouton density profile. If you still have the pictures and have neurogliaform and basket cells stained with the same technique, you should be able to determine whether you are in the ballpark.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-018-0205-2/figures/2

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#16

Post by hyperpallium »

Someone wrote: post #11

”It is still possible that these newly identified neurons will also be found the brains of primates like monkeys or chimps, Lein says.” Possible and, in my universe, quite a bit more likely than that these cells are “unique to humans” (cursorily reading the paper, these scientists didn’t even look for this type of cell in anything but humans, but only claim that, if rodents had them, they would have been found there,…

By that logic, if humans had them, they would have been found before now, given the amount of time spent looking at human brains.

It seems you have to be looking in the right place, in the right way, for the right thing.

But it's wrong to knock a new discovery - even if not unique to humans, it's still a discovery. Let's celebrate the feature for itself, not benefits that might follow.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#17

Post by buntress »

nonbel wrote: post #9
buntress wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before rea…

I had some old pictures of stained rodent brains and saw something looked qualitatively like what they described in the first (and only) image I checked. Since they dont give any definite criteria for me to compare against, what can I do?

I'd imagine there are slides, and slides, and slides of ape neurons in circulation, possibly imaged as photomicrographs and stored in digital libraries, and heaping data sets of genomic primate data.

Are data rights costly? I doubt that sort of information has a shelf life. Consider that HELA cells are still around.

If they release the specific results, and how they arrived at such conclusions, others should be able to take that in hand, and move quickly to look at primate corollaries.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#18

Post by stult »

hyperpallium wrote: post #16
Someone wrote: post #11

”It is still possible that these newly identified neurons will also be found the brains of primates like monkeys or chimps, Lein says.” Possible and, in my universe, quite a bit more likely than that these cells are “unique to humans” (cursorily reading the paper, these scientists didn’t even look for this type of cell in anything but humans, but only claim that, if rodents had them, they would have been found there,…

By that logic, if humans had them, they would have been found before now, given the amount of time spent looking at human brains. It seems you have to be looking in the right place, in the right way, for the right thing. But it's wrong to knock a new discovery - even if not unique to humans, it's still a discovery. Let's celebrate the feature for itself, not benefits that might follow.

There's probably been orders of magnitude more time spent analyzing rodent brains, simply because there is an effectively unlimited quantity available and an extremely limited quantity of human brains available. Essentially all invasive human brain studies are preceded by animal model studies (usually starting with rodents before proceeding to "higher" animals if that's called for), but conversely not all animal model studies result in a human follow up. Meaning a hell of a lot more rodent brains get put under the microscope. So in general you would expect to find them in rodents first, if the probability of serendipitous discovery is purely a function of time spent conducting unrelated analyses.

Re: Newly Discovered 'Rose Hip' Neurons May Be Unique To Humans

#19

Post by kanzure »

stult wrote: post #18
hyperpallium wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, if humans had them, they would have been found before now, given the amount of time spent looking at human brains. It seems you have to be looking in the right place, in the right way, for the right thing. But it's wrong to knock a new discovery - even if not unique to humans, it's still a discovery. Let's celebrate the feature for itself, not benefits that might follow.

There's probably been orders of magnitude more time spent analyzing rodent brains, simply because there is an effectively unlimited quantity available and an extremely limited quantity of human brains available. Essentially all invasive human brain studies are preceded by animal model studies (usually starting with rodents before proceeding to "higher" animals if that's called for), but conversely not all animal mode…

I wouldn't expect the number of human autopsies to be more than a few million over the entire history of the human species. Nobody looks at human brains. It's a huge problem.
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