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California governor signs overhaul of bail system

latimes.com

141–150 of 208 posts

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#141
I can't find it now, but I was reading a Reddit post on this from someone who works in the California court system.

His/her opinion was that this wasn't going to really change much. People arrested for minor crimes are often released on their own recognizance and major crime they aren't offer bail terms they can meet. Under this new system, the same people will likely be released without bail and the same people will be kept behind bars.

Interestingly, if you skip out on a court date, an arrest warrant is issued, but they expire after 3 years. Apparently getting people to show up for their court date is a huge problem as the consequences are pretty minor unless you encounter law enforcement.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#142
post #29
post #26

Instead of the duly appointed Judge making the decision, the power is delegated to a "Risk Assessment" board. (i.e., a bunch of unaccountable social workers). So, instead of an individual Judge getting flack for excessive bail, he can sleep at night having had his authority delegated to an anonymous 'committee' that can refuse to set bail altogether. It seems the general public -- at least in California -- has little…

Isn't part of the problem that judges face a lot of pressures to be extra harsh when deciding bail? A board seems less likely to face political blowback when the rare out on bail person commits a serious crime. That sounds like the sort of incident that incentivizes judges to be extra harsh.

The typical judge is not predominately influenced by political pressure.

Before a judge sets bail, he will (a) have the defendant in front of him, (b) listen to arguments from the State, and (c) arguments from the defense attorney. (In some situations, a booking magistrate can set bail before the defense attorneys appearance, but the defense sttorney has the right to have the judge revisit the issue as soon as he makes an appearance.)

This adversarial process is good. The State can make its arguments, and the Defendsnt can make his, and the issue is decided by an expert in the law who has st least seven years of college education.

It is unwise to toss out this system in favor of a gaggle of social workers.

Unfortunately, this is s trend that extends far beyond bail and California. I'm certain many readers have been involved in custody litigation where, instead of the judge listening to testimony, cross-examination, etc., the decision is effectively made by a 'Socisl Study' performed by an incompetent psychologist/social worker appointed by the Court. It's hideous.

It's also popping up in professional licensing boards. A doctor, to give an example, might be brought before the state medical board for some infraction. But, instead of the board hearing the case, they require him to be scrutinized and evslusted by some private contracted group of dingbats... almost almost always non-doctors. The group's 'advisory opinion' is almost always adopted by the board.

In short, there is a trend towards relieving our official 'decision-makers' from their duty to make decisions. It's disturbing.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#143
post #23

my gf has bail review on the 30th, too bad this won't help her. her bail is at $355,000, she's currently in vista detention facility =(

you're definitely not the typical HN user

That's right, the typical HN users are some of the finest intellectuals who would never act criminally due to their superior intellect and morals. Most of us are from Norway actually.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#144
post #73
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how a bail is more motivating for someone to show up to trial than the threat of arrest with no bail. We don't have people pre-pay to not commit other crimes, why does specifically this one get it? This is ignoring all the other, wealth disparity type issues, with bail. Seems to me like it just privatized part of the justice system - instead of cops chasing down delinquent criminals, it's bail bond…

> I don't understand how a bail is more motivating for someone to show up to trial than the threat of arrest with no bail. In some cases it may remove a significant portion of the money the accused might flee with. In others, it can provide social constraints that are more binding than legal ones. For example, if your parents but their house (or a large portion of what the sale of it would net) up as collateral for y…

Still. If you are innocent, you might not be able to afford the bail and receive irrecoverable financial damage -- lose your job, insurance, etc. (Enter plea agreements...)

If you are guilty, I expect you actually don't want to end up in jail no matter the cost. Let us say you face 10 years in jail, you have actually committed the crime: what are the chances you think you will just take it one step further and ruin your family?

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#145
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow your proposal. Honestly, it sounds really scary and disturbing, but I'll let you explain it better first.

Rather than putting up cash, a friend, brother, sister, etc offers themselves as the bond for my freedom. If I abscond then they’ll be arrested and imprisoned until I’m apprehended. Assuming that “everybody has somebody”, it’s quite fair as rich or poor you’ll be able to find someone to be your bond. Again the idea is to have a strong incentive to report for trial. Assuming your actually emotionally close to the pers…

you should have written this in your opening post. In your op I thought that you were suggesting for some sort of whipping boy. Your clarification makes more sense. some things that should be pointed out is that your collateral can refuse, and that skipping bail is still a crime, so if you ditch, you will be hunted and be revoked bail rights for the rest of your life.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. So I think at the top end of the spectrum this might make sense. The problem is that a very large percentage people in jail are there because their bail was literally $50 or $100 but they didn't have the money to pay it, so they end up in jail for months or years on end. And for these people, bail has zero impact on whether they show up for trial.

I have the data available for felonies right here [1]. And according to those data 77% of people without prior convictions end up being released (63% for those with only misdemeanor convictions, 46% with prior felony convictions). Of those released, about 33% are released for $0 bail, and the remainder met financial conditions. For those who faced a bail of [1] - https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/prfdsc.pdf

According to your link 32% of all defendants are held on bail, I would call that "a very large percentage". It would be interesting to see what proportion of the total incarcerated population those held on bail made up too. It's also worth pointing out that that data stops at 2004 and shows the amount held on bail increased ~15% in 14 years, from the "media sources" I've read it has apparently not stopped going up in the most recent 14 years either.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#147
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. I’d like to see an experiment where rather than money, instead a free citizen is offered up for bail. And if you don’t show up for trial the citizen goes to jail till they apprehend you.

Oh you mean like what they did in the middle ages? Now who could pay for that person? And we are back to a bail situation

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#148

This is terrible. Pretrial detention in rough California county jails is often used as a bargaining chip by prosecutors to get quick convictions in exchange for probationary sentences. "Don't like the constant threat of being raped or assaulted every day? Sign the deal, take a felony conviction, and you'll get out on probation tonight". This won't result in more poor people being released. It will simply result in a…

> This won't result in more poor people being released. It will simply result in a higher percentage of middle and upper class people being extorted into guilty pleas that they would not otherwise take, under the threat of losing their careers and families as a result of many months

Instead of just poor people?

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#149
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how a bail is more motivating for someone to show up to trial than the threat of arrest with no bail. In some cases it may remove a significant portion of the money the accused might flee with. In others, it can provide social constraints that are more binding than legal ones. For example, if your parents but their house (or a large portion of what the sale of it would net) up as collateral for y…

Still. If you are innocent, you might not be able to afford the bail and receive irrecoverable financial damage -- lose your job, insurance, etc. (Enter plea agreements...) If you are guilty, I expect you actually don't want to end up in jail no matter the cost. Let us say you face 10 years in jail, you have actually committed the crime: what are the chances you think you will just take it one step further and ruin y…

> If you are innocent, you might not be able to afford the bail and receive irrecoverable financial damage

Sure. I'm not making a case that bail is perfect, or even good overall, I'm just laying out some of the reasoning behind why it exists.

> Let us say you face 10 years in jail, you have actually committed the crime: what are the chances you think you will just take it one step further and ruin your family?

What are the chances that your friends and family don't understand this, and as such are unwilling to put up collateral as bail? It's not like the the accused get to put up other people's money and property without their say-so. The accused might con them into paying the bail, but really, there's only so much you can do in a case like that. If you could solve that scenario, you could probably eliminate confidence crimes altogether.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#150
post #8

I'm not sure if I agree with this change (there are positives and negatives to the bail system), but I love that in a federal system individual states are free to experiment like this. Maybe it will work, and then other states can adopt it.

New Jersey & Alaska have already largely abolished cash bail. There's a Planet Money episode on New Jersey's bail reform: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/07/12/536905881/epis...
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