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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#321

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

haberman wrote: post #233
aluren wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

I understand your position. But too often people who have legitimate gripes with society (like you say) are quick to classify legitimate disagreement with an attack on their identity. Disagreement over a company's diversity policies (for example) is not inherently an attack on anyone's personhood, but it is frequently interpreted as one, and with great rancor. One definition of power that is sometimes given: "To lear…

What does that even mean? Of course your job has power over your employment that's tautological. And given how expensive hiring people is there's a market interest in making sure "free thinkers" don't drive entire groups away in their vain attempt to pretend it's the 19th century.

If you feel you have a right to bull others and to deny that is to restrict your ability to "dissent"; if you feel that you have the right to spread false information (women aren't welcome in tech, any given race isn't welcome, any given sexuality isn't welcome, etc"; then you should perhaps sit down and remember your company is going to exercise its free speech and kick you too the curb. The cost of giving you a "safe space to dissent" isn't worth reducing the hiring pool.

Free market baby, get fucking used to it.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#323

Post by zapita »

xexers wrote: post #269

[Deleted]

Here is a prominent Japanese American, George Takei, who was interned in the 40s, drawing from his experience to complain about contemporary US policy on behalf of other groups.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/19/at-least-during-the-int...

So maybe the lesson to be learned is not the one you think?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#324

Post by WallWextra »

aluren wrote: post #170
_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

People's politics are mostly determined by where they live, and maybe their age. If you insist on fighting over politics, you should at least recognize that's what you're fighting over.

It's not about life and death or oppression, it's just about where you're from. And you're just fighting with people who live somewhere else than you.

People's actual concrete opinions on issues change with time, with their social circle, etc. The issues are not as important as people think they are, and there are lots of life and death issues which don't elicit churlish behavior the way politics does.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#325

Post by jtmcmc »

tptacek wrote: post #22

Good for them. The structural change needed in our industry is for labor (or, to use a term we're apparently more comfortable with, "talent") to reassert itself, and for tech giants to reconcile themselves to the fact that they're accountable not just to their shareholders but to their employees. I hope this gets nasty, and that these FB employees ultimately find recourse in the NLRA. We forget that this industry is…

yeah I fail to really connect the dots between people that want to be islamophobic and transphobic with labor relations.

If anything I'd say the organized actions by googlers against military contracts shows the actions you seem to be looking for much better.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#326

Post by chrisco255 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #258
chrisco255 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvote button is not a disagree button.

If you google for “downvote disagree hn” you’ll find references from mods that downvotes are valid for disagreement. Disclaimer: haven’t voted anything in this thread

A certain amount of downvotes cause a post to disappear. Downvotes should be restricted to non-constructive posts. :shrugs:

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#327

Post by aluren »

ralusek wrote: post #235

And it has been my experience that people who have politics "happen" to them from "the moment [they] wake up to the moment [they] sleep" in large part simply perceive that to be their existence. I have read countless articles and posts at this point claiming that "America doesn't care about black bodies" and that black people in America should "fear for their lives every day," all in regards to the perceived danger o…

> And it has been my experience that people who have politics "happen" to them from "the moment [they] wake up to the moment [they] sleep" in large part simply perceive that to be their existence.

> 1000 people (0.000003% of the population) are killed by police annually. 24% of those killed are black. No person has a statistically relevant chance of being killed by police, and yet it is not uncommon to hear it stated that this is simply this segment of the population's "lived reality." It isn't, and that's the problem.

Perception doesn't make a political experience any less valid. You don't have to have lived a traumatic experience to be afraid of it, and the records of bad encounters with police from black people are plenty even though they aren't counted in your stats. It is of course the same with women and sexual assault etc. I suggest you listen to the stories of people around you as they probably have many to tell, and if they don't, here is a very good read that someone posted here on HN: https://lithub.com/walking-while-black/

>Stating, as James Damore did, that the lack of female representation in tech is not appropriately attributable to workplace bias was a fireable offense.

I don't believe that was the fireable offense, although the statement itself is no less ludicrous. If I remember well, the letter made a clear distinction between the abstract wishy-washy evopsych stuff and the clear implication that Google's current diversity policies were lowering the bar for hiring and thus that his female colleagues were less capable than average.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#328

Post by mcphage »

_8j50 wrote: post #163
austinheap wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called corporate social responsibility. Companies advocate for their bottom line and their employees at the same time. As a gay dude that grew up in Ohio -- and had people yell "fag" when I got my diploma at graduation -- I'm beyond happy that the next generation of LGBTQ engineers won't grow up with the same level of hate I experienced. The arc of moral justice is only bent when force is applied.

You only say that because it's convenient for you. You would not like it one bit at the conservative places I worked at. It really is a two way street and u-turns are allowed.

> You would not like it one bit at the conservative places I worked at.

So the commenter says that he looks forward to the next generation of developers not experiencing the hate that he has experienced. You say, he’d be unhappy at conservative places, presumably because he’d still experience that hate.

So then why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? His goal—hell, it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#329

Post by __d »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #217
__d wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that "western feminism" doesn't appear to believe that women have achieved equal rights seems to me like maybe there's some more discussion to be had and changes to be made?

Feminists are still trying to change society and still have a narrative of being about "equal rights" as a concept. They have equality under the law by any reasonable definition. Reproductive health access and family leave laws are the best example I can think of, and even that's a stretch. Do you have better examples?

My impression of the situation is that while the law might confer equal rights, it doesn't result in equal lived experience.

Changing the law is one thing; changing culture and expectations is another.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#330

Post by Tycho »

brainkim wrote: post #45
manfredo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following views were listed on the memo: * Support of President Trump (e.g. Thiel's and Palmer Lucky's campaign contributions) * "All lives matter" * Criticism of Islam's human rights record. * Calling the company's art politically radical . Which, if any, of these views don't deserve respect?

The first three are deeply problematic and rooted in deep-seated white supremacist beliefs and absent mitigating circumstances I’d consider firing people who held them. Sorry, that’s just how I have to feel given everything that’s been going on these days.

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