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California governor signs overhaul of bail system

latimes.com

31–40 of 208 posts

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#31
> work with lawmakers and the state’s top Supreme Court justice [...] Under last-minute changes, judges would have greater power to decide [...] Chief Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye, who helped craft the legislation

It's an improvement, sure, but no surprise consulting a branch or two of government to draft it would end up with more power to a branch. What are the objective criteria for the "risk analysis" that divides the accused into the three risk levels? And how often do extenuating circumstances really occur that require judicial override sans approval from an additional independent council?

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#32
post #19

Both judges and "risk-assessment tools" have biases. Judges have unconscious biases and risk-assessment tools are fed biased data. So I'm not confident this will actually help matters.

Judge's biases exist in the money bail system too. Judges often set bail amounts from a range. This doesn't solve all issues, this just solves one issue, which is that someone's economic status shouldn't be why they're in jail, only their likelihood of committing more crime, witness tampering, or skipping court. I'm sure this new system will have problems that will need to be addressed, but it is a moral thing to TRY…

What if biases are easier to detect (and correct) in the cash bail system? If true, would it then be more moral to to stick with the cash bail system?

I could argue that a judge's biases are harder to detect and correct because in doing so you literally have to accuse another human person of being biased, which is something nobody wants to do.

To argue that an algorithm is biased requires that one analyze all the data fed into the algorithm and gain some insight into the algorithm. Most of the time the original data is unavailable, incomplete, or proprietary and the models used to predict risk are also considered proprietary, which limits an outsider's ability to detect and correct biases.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#33
post #14
post #8

I'm not sure if I agree with this change (there are positives and negatives to the bail system), but I love that in a federal system individual states are free to experiment like this. Maybe it will work, and then other states can adopt it.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

1. Get people to show up for trial

2. Get dangerous people -- perhaps with little to lose if they are already facing serious charges -- off the street faster

Of course these benefits need to be balanced against the costs imposed on the defendent (who has not been convicted yet).

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#34
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. I’d like to see an experiment where rather than money, instead a free citizen is offered up for bail. And if you don’t show up for trial the citizen goes to jail till they apprehend you.

I don't follow your proposal. Honestly, it sounds really scary and disturbing, but I'll let you explain it better first.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#35
post #26

Instead of the duly appointed Judge making the decision, the power is delegated to a "Risk Assessment" board. (i.e., a bunch of unaccountable social workers). So, instead of an individual Judge getting flack for excessive bail, he can sleep at night having had his authority delegated to an anonymous 'committee' that can refuse to set bail altogether. It seems the general public -- at least in California -- has little…

> a bunch of unaccountable social workers Some judges have appointments for life, and those that aren't often aren't recalled. How is that accountable? > anonymous 'committee' that can refuse to set bail altogether. Where are you getting the information that the committee is anonymous or unaccountable? The articles on this change that I've read didn't specify that.

Judges can be recalled, though it is rare. It recently happened to the California judge who presided over the Brock Turner case over accusations that his sentence was not harsh enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner#Repercussions...

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#36
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. I’d like to see an experiment where rather than money, instead a free citizen is offered up for bail. And if you don’t show up for trial the citizen goes to jail till they apprehend you.

Are you saying that they should try punishing an innocent until guilt overwhelms the alleged offender? ... That doesn't seem very empathic. Seems like it would create an incentive for vigilantism too. Huh.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#37
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. I’d like to see an experiment where rather than money, instead a free citizen is offered up for bail. And if you don’t show up for trial the citizen goes to jail till they apprehend you.

I don't understand how a bail is more motivating for someone to show up to trial than the threat of arrest with no bail.

We don't have people pre-pay to not commit other crimes, why does specifically this one get it?

This is ignoring all the other, wealth disparity type issues, with bail.

Seems to me like it just privatized part of the justice system - instead of cops chasing down delinquent criminals, it's bail bondsmen.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#39
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of good sides to the bail system. What positives do you see.

Getting people to show up to trial is the main one. I’d like to see an experiment where rather than money, instead a free citizen is offered up for bail. And if you don’t show up for trial the citizen goes to jail till they apprehend you.

Sounds like China where the rich pay other people to serve their sentence.

Re: California governor signs overhaul of bail system

#40
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who skip bail, by and large, don't get on a plane or drive across the country. Also, the bail system isn't designed to only incentivize defendants themselves to show up to court. The bail bondsman has the financial incentive and the legal right to apprehend and deliver a defendant who has skipped bail. Removing the bail bondsman from the equation only increases the public cost of reapprehending these defendant…

You're missing the very basic point: bail hearings are before you're on trial. Which is the problem: even if you did not commit the crime for which you're charged, you end up in jail because you literally cannot afford not to. Then you lose your job, because you know, you were in jail. There are innumerable cases where innocent people have been arrested (think protests that are protected by the first amendment, or si…

> Which is the problem: even if you did not commit the crime for which you're charged, you end up in jail because you literally cannot afford not to. Then you lose your job, because you know, you were in jail.

Yes; putting people in jail is a mechanism for making sure people show up to court. It is a very effective mechanism. And it remains a mechanism even after California's reforms.

There's no civil right to receive an offer of bail. Perhaps there should be some sort of legal protection so people don't lose their jobs on account of merely being arrested, but the court always has the option not to offer bail and just hold you until trial. And I think this reform actually makes that outcome more likely, which I'll explain more below.

> or if you could afford the bond you're out the bond (it does. not. get. refunded. It's pure profit for bail bond companies).

Bail bondsmen are essentially loaning you money to pay bail, it's just that you pay the interest up front as a lump sum payment. (Also, you're securing the loan by granting the bail bondsman the legal right to apprehend you and bring you to jail if you skip your court date, which is why bail bonds are still affordable despite the obviously high risk inherent in them.)

> There are also cases where bail has been used to get people who are innocent to take plea agreements, which inflates police/prosecutor success rates while simultaneously allowing the actual criminal to go free. The basic statement is "take this community service plea or we'll set your bail too high for you to afford". Again, numerous documented cases of this exist.

Sources?

In any case, the essential problem is that someone has to estimate a combination of three factors:

* The probability that the suspect will miss their court date

* The cost of trying to apprehend the suspect and return them to jail, if they miss their court date

* The probability of success of trying to apprehend the suspect and return them to jail, if they miss their court date

The bail system solves this problem. If a bail bondsman is willing to bet their money on you in exchange for a certain bond amount, and you can afford the bond amount, you don't have to stay in jail. The bail bondsman has the incentive to accurately estimate all of these factors, and also has greater knowledge of them, because the bail bondsman himself is often the one to apprehend you if you skip court. If the bail bondsman miscalculates and offers bail to risky suspects, he loses money and goes out of business; if he miscalculates and doesn't offer bail to safe suspects, he loses money to his competitors. So not only is the bail bondsman making better bets, he's also only risking his own money.

Having bureaucrats making the decision and sheriff's deputies trying to round up people who missed their court date is going to be far less efficient, and will probably result in more people staying in jail, because there will be a much stronger incentive to err in the direction of keeping people in jail. A bail bondsman who never issues any bail bonds goes out of business; a county that never releases suspects of their own recognizance has 100% of suspects show up to their court dates.

Once we recognize the fact that it really sucks to get arrested and sent to jail, and that many innocent people are arrested and sent to jail and suffer serious life consequences as a result, then the question becomes: how do we effectively reduce this suffering while still being reasonably certain that criminal defendants don't miss court? I think the bail system likely solves this problem far more effectively, measured purely in terms of reducing the suffering of the people getting arrested than the California Bureau Of Arbitrarily Deciding Whether Or Not To Release You Of Your Own Recognizance.

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