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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#131

Post by __d »

nyolfen wrote: post #46
stochastic_monk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a massive difference between calculated misinformation with incitement to violence and having differing views.

> incitement to violence good point, do you feel this way about people who say 'punch a nazi'?

I can't speak for the OP, but I think "punch a Nazi" is totally unacceptable.

A related example: Antifa.

When a group expressing an extreme ideology begins to use violence against those who oppose it, is it acceptable to use violence in retaliation?

Historically, the answer is "after a while, yes". But it's a slippery slope towards becoming that which you oppose.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#132

Post by jmeyer2k »

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

Gay/LGBTQ rights and tolerance in the workplace is way different than donating to Trump.

I understand if you don't think a company should support a political party, but LGBTQ/gay tolerance meetings don't fall into that category.

If you put this into the context of some other progressive social movement such as giving women equal opportunity to men, it makes more sense. A company would not be out of line giving seminars about gender equality in the workplace even though some people may disagree. It's not a partisan issue. It's about acceptance and tolerance.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#133

Post by bodas »

_iyig wrote: post #86
brainkim wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first three are deeply problematic and rooted in deep-seated white supremacist beliefs and absent mitigating circumstances I’d consider firing people who held them. Sorry, that’s just how I have to feel given everything that’s been going on these days.

I don’t agree that all criticism of misogynistic divorce laws, violence against “immodest” women, and application of the death penalty for homosexuality or apostasy is driven by “deeply-rooted white supremacy.” I would fire anyone who held such a belief, as I would not trust them around female, gay, or ex-Muslim co-workers.

A straw man would probably not be a very effective employee anyway.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#134

Post by wrsh07 »

manfredo wrote: post #89
wrsh07 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this incredibly surprising. Do you give them a chance to? So many of my colleagues (at a big tech co) have expressed various conservative views. Granted, I live in NYC, but this feels a bit like you're experiencing confirmation bias.

Yes, I've discussed politics with many of my coworkers. Few of them have any hesitation discussing liberal standpoints. I can only assume that conservatives are staying silent. I can't claim to speak for conservatives, but I can totally understand why they would stay silent given the atmosphere. See the reply to my other comment, where a HN poster straight up says they would fire any employees that support Trump: htt…

> Yes, I've discussed politics with many of my coworkers. Few of them have any hesitation discussing liberal standpoints.

If the linked commenter were to say nobody would express their conservative views to them, that wouldn't surprise me.

However, it seems like you'd be a bit more sympathetic (than the linked commenter). I've found a number of colleagues from red states who supported/support Trump (often for reasons posted in Altman's article about crossing the aisle - single issue voters etc).

Lots of conservatives on Wall Street, too (many leave for big tech cos after a few years).

Finally, I see a bunch of tech-libertarians, which is sort of a hybrid of some conservative financial ideas and some progressive social ideas.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#135

Post by roenxi »

itronitron wrote: post #102
_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

what was unpleasant about the very liberal workplace?

There is the unreachable ideal of political neutrality, then there are the achievable murky states of "neutral enough" that we can strive to achieve in daily life.

A workplace should be, first and foremost, a place where work is done. The march of history has proven that allowing people who are mistaken in their beliefs to contribute positively has achieved great things. Consider, for example, Fritz Haber - many of his beliefs and principles are clearly bad ideas, and his overall contribution is overwhelmingly positive. This is a particularly good example of a general principle that exists up and down the industrial underpinnings of modern western civilisation.

Politics entering the workplace, and monocultures in particular, represent a threat the the mechanisms that allow corporations to drive good outcomes. Nobody should want that, especially considering that even apparent fact sometimes turns out to be wrong.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#136

Post by gmadsen »

tptacek wrote: post #58
euroclydon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a bunch of highly paid conservative software developers would unionize and get the NLRB involved is rich.

Why? We're all generally well-paid (even with respect to the value we create). But this whole message board is practically dedicated to the ways in which our industry pisses us off, from confiscatory IP clauses to open offices to death march projects. Who's to say labor can't organize simply for a better shop to work in? That's not unprecedented.

for one, American right wing conservatism is strongly anti-union and anything that diminishes the employers agility to conduct business as they see fit, so the idea of a bunch of well paid conservatives banding together to collectively argue against their employers is very ironic.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#137

Post by chimpburger »

brainkim wrote: post #45
manfredo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following views were listed on the memo: * Support of President Trump (e.g. Thiel's and Palmer Lucky's campaign contributions) * "All lives matter" * Criticism of Islam's human rights record. * Calling the company's art politically radical . Which, if any, of these views don't deserve respect?

The first three are deeply problematic and rooted in deep-seated white supremacist beliefs and absent mitigating circumstances I’d consider firing people who held them. Sorry, that’s just how I have to feel given everything that’s been going on these days.

You are deeply and profoundly irrational. Feeling without thinking.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#138

Post by minor3rd »

downandout wrote: post #88
ctvo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those employees complaining were told they're not breaking any company policies. Their group is still open and nothing has been done against them. What a controversy.

It actually is a sign of something terribly wrong with the company's culture. If a notoriously liberal company determined that complaints about "racially offensive" posts in this group were false, then one can reasonably believe that the complaints were indeed false. That means that other employees were simply lodging false complaints to interfere with this group's right to exist. Think about that for a second. Other…

Sadly both conservatives and liberals are blind to their own hypocrisy. This kind of shit goes on at both ends of the spectrum unfortunately.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#139

Post by euroclydon »

tptacek wrote: post #58
euroclydon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a bunch of highly paid conservative software developers would unionize and get the NLRB involved is rich.

Why? We're all generally well-paid (even with respect to the value we create). But this whole message board is practically dedicated to the ways in which our industry pisses us off, from confiscatory IP clauses to open offices to death march projects. Who's to say labor can't organize simply for a better shop to work in? That's not unprecedented.

I associate unions with homogenized labor, stratus of equivalent positions, but we’re all too unique 10x butterflies for that. I mean, what part of your career arc would have been better served in a unionized environment?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#140

Post by manfredo »

some1else wrote: post #111
manfredo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following views were listed on the memo: * Support of President Trump (e.g. Thiel's and Palmer Lucky's campaign contributions) * "All lives matter" * Criticism of Islam's human rights record. * Calling the company's art politically radical . Which, if any, of these views don't deserve respect?

Views are free to be had, and command no respect whatsoever. I respect criticism of any human rights violation, the rest of the list doesn't pertain to me. I support the freedom of people to have those views, but also welcome the prudent choice of restricting the ability to utilize the most powerful medium of our time to spread hatred. Hate all you like, but you don't get the platform on the count of first amendment.…

Sure, not all views command respect, but would you actually fire an employee if a co-worker showed you records of a campaign distribution to Trump? Or if they showed you a post criticizing a Saudi cleric's views of women's rights or LGBT rights?

This memo isn't about what Facebook allows on it's platforms it's about policing the views of it's employees.

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