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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#51

Post by ptaipale »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #15
cr1895 wrote: post #13

It wasn’t always this way. There’s an interesting clip from a documentary in 1972 about the neighborhood De Pijp in Amsterdam, when it was still very much a car-centric city. At the time children in the area protested how dangerous the streets had become and how they lacked safe areas to play. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/amsterdam-chil... Compared to the situation now, it’s vastly improved. Fortunat…

I wonder if the fact they didn't have a significant car industry helped with this.

There was DAF, though. But it went out of car business and now makes trucks only.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#52

Post by digi_owl »

kazinator wrote: post #34
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Note that in the USA, it's possible to see children in a playground wearing helmets.

An idea that, thanks to US mass media exports, seems to be spreading to other parts of the world...

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#53

Post by kazinator »

bunderbunder wrote: post #35
watwut wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helmet does not help in high speed crash with car and is not designed for it. It helps in small falls.

I've seen that stated many times. As far as I can tell, it traces back to a news article that did fun things like cherry picking individual observations from a study to support a claim even though the study's overall findings were contradictory. My own sense is that the science seems pretty clear that, provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death. Helmets aren't…

> I've seen that stated many times

Including on bike helmet safety labels. Fact is, they really are designed for falls and not for collisions with motor vehicles. In that situation, they may just be a "better than nothing", possibly not enough to make any difference to the outcome.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#54

Post by dantheman0207 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #15
cr1895 wrote: post #13

It wasn’t always this way. There’s an interesting clip from a documentary in 1972 about the neighborhood De Pijp in Amsterdam, when it was still very much a car-centric city. At the time children in the area protested how dangerous the streets had become and how they lacked safe areas to play. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/amsterdam-chil... Compared to the situation now, it’s vastly improved. Fortunat…

I wonder if the fact they didn't have a significant car industry helped with this.

Actually, in 1972 the Netherlands did have a rapidly growing car industry on their own soil. Three years later it sold a majority stake to Volví after growth dropped off, but up until 1973 it was growing at a rapid pace. It was a significant source of jobs in the south, where it was based. They employed >80k people and were building a new factory.

I used to live in housing designed for factory workers of DAF. The company didn’t succeed because of other issues. But it is typically Dutch that they chose to design their cities for people instead of giving away what amounts to a subsidy paid for by lower quality of life.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#55

Post by dstick »

Fritsdehacker wrote: post #44
codr4 wrote: post #27

From having spent quite some time in Amsterdam, I would say that you're safer on a bike than on foot. When a biker rings the bell on you in Amsterdam it's not a heads up or suggestion to get out of the way like in the rest of the world; it's quite possibly the last thing you will ever hear. From my experience, they go fast and expect you to move out of the way. Or you could try to not walk in bike lanes, I guess; not…

I lived in Amsterdam for more than ten years and recently moved to a smaller city. Amsterdam really has it's own bike "culture". Cyclist in the rest of Holland are far more forgiving to pedestrians and other traffic in general in my experience. I have no trouble cycling in Amsterdam, but I do have to pay a lot more attention than normally.

Yup, two completely different worlds. A red sign is treated more like a suggestion ;-)

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#56

Post by dantheman0207 »

dddw wrote: post #37
cr1895 wrote: post #13

It wasn’t always this way. There’s an interesting clip from a documentary in 1972 about the neighborhood De Pijp in Amsterdam, when it was still very much a car-centric city. At the time children in the area protested how dangerous the streets had become and how they lacked safe areas to play. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/amsterdam-chil... Compared to the situation now, it’s vastly improved. Fortunat…

Rotterdam is still very car-centric if you ask me.

Amsterdam is ~1000 years old. Parts of it are very unfriendly to cars simply because they were never built to be accessible.

In contrast, Rotterdam was mostly rebuilt after WWII. This gave them the opportunity to make the city more accessible for cars. Still you can get around Rotterdam by metro quite easily, and you are a first class citizen on a bike or on foot. i know lots of people living in Rotterdam who don’t own a car.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#57

Post by s73v3r_ »

Scott_Sanderson wrote: post #40
bunderbunder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen that stated many times. As far as I can tell, it traces back to a news article that did fun things like cherry picking individual observations from a study to support a claim even though the study's overall findings were contradictory. My own sense is that the science seems pretty clear that, provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death. Helmets aren't…

> provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death So . . . you wear a helmet when driving? Because people get head injuries all the time in car wrecks.

On a motorcycle, yes. Otherwise, I'm surrounded by a cage of metal.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#58

Post by gowld »

bunderbunder wrote: post #48
Scott_Sanderson wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death So . . . you wear a helmet when driving? Because people get head injuries all the time in car wrecks.

My bicycle doesn't have nearly as many air bags as a typical car. You're right, though. Cars are fundamentally dangerous. High risk of violent injury or death, and, even in the best case, they subtly harm your health and longevity by encouraging a sedentary lifestyle. Damned expensive, too. Perhaps we should all just move to Rotterdam so we wouldn't have to deal with them so much.

https://hovding.com/ - bicycle airbag.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#59

Post by ghaff »

Scott_Sanderson wrote: post #40
bunderbunder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen that stated many times. As far as I can tell, it traces back to a news article that did fun things like cherry picking individual observations from a study to support a claim even though the study's overall findings were contradictory. My own sense is that the science seems pretty clear that, provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death. Helmets aren't…

> provided you are in a wreck, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your risk of serious injury and death So . . . you wear a helmet when driving? Because people get head injuries all the time in car wrecks.

It's really not an unreasonable point. As a society, we make rules all the time about safety )that may or may not be rooted in actual statistics). I certainly did lots of things as a kid that would be seen by at least many people I know as reckless today in terms of safety equipment.

An argument can be made that you should wear a helmet of some sort in many circumstances where it's not required (or expected) today. Look at downhill skiing. It's still far from universal but no one (besides racers) wore a helmet until 20 years ago or so. I still don't wear one.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#60

Post by hathawsh »

ptaipale wrote: post #39
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

Another thing is that Netherlands (most of it) is flat. Much nicer to ride bike on even ground than where there are even small hills.

A lot of the good road bike trails in the US are built next to slow-moving rivers and canals for that very reason. Rivers tend to carve the land or reroute until the slope is gentle and nearly constant. My favorite way to find road bike trails in the US is by looking near large rivers.
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