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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#351

Post by PretzelPirate »

acdha wrote: post #74
jchw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Was the goal of Bitcoin ever to be the successor to paper money? We're here today and Bitcoin is a functional payment network. Not only that, it's a fairly large one, and it has become a household name. I don't really use Bitcoin but I think it's hyperbole to consider it a unilateral failure just because it didn't supercede traditional currency.

It’s a household name because of speculation, however, and statistically almost nobody uses it for the kind of decentralized transactions for which it was originally pitched. The number of vendors accepting it has gone down over time (e.g. Steam, Microsoft) due to the endemic problems and many of the people who claim to use it (even here) are actually using the credit card network with government currencies for the a…

Small correction: Microsoft still accepts Bitcoin.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13942/microsoft-acc...

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#352

Post by zaarn »

jstanley wrote: post #34
TACIXAT wrote: post #21

A currency with no mechanism for monetary policy is not going to be adopted. Bitcoin is purely deflationary for more reasons than just people losing their keys. For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. So yo…

> The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. That's not how it works. If you spent $100 in electricity and you have an asset that's worth $50, you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. Electricity cost of mining does…

It kinda does set a price floor, the cost of operation of the cheapest miner is the price floor. No miner will want to sell below as it would be a loss and considering Bitcoin is deflationary in nature, it is likely worthwhile to just hold the coins and earn the deflationary interest on them until the price adjusts.

Assuming you can only either sell or loose the money fails to take temporal effects into account, ie the fact that there is such a thing as time progressing that changes variables.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#353

Post by keymone »

smsm42 wrote: post #340
keymone wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exaggerating a bit? bitcoin syncs within couple hours unless you run it on the computer you'd gain your decades of experience on :) every mobile bitcoin app is a lightweight client - it only syncs block headers, much faster but not great for large sums of money. so for a person that can't tell "browser" from "internet" there's no difference between introducing them to paypal or to bitcoin - it's just an app on your p…

With paypal, if someone gives you trouble, you can call support and reverse the payment. And they have protection policies. With bitcoin, if anything happens, you're the idiot who bought into the hype and now getting what was coming you you. For consumer, there's a huge difference - that's why "ZERO FRAUD LIABILITY" is written on every credit card conditions in big friendly letters. Are there any zero fraud liability…

paypal is a product built on top of existing currency. bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product. there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd. one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution but also limiting the influence middleman (paypal) has - can't run away with your money, can't block the transaction against will of both participants, etc.

this tech is a decade old but it's still in it's infancy especially regarding UX side.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#354

Post by fstanis »

socrates1998 wrote: post #70

It sounds weird, but I think a big part of Bitcoin's, and other crypto's value, isn't in the day to day ability to use it to buy and sell things, it's the inability of the government to devalue it. This isn't as big a problem in many richer countries with relatively stable currencies, but I sure as hell would prefer Bitcoin to anything the Venezuelan government or the Argentinian government would issue. The kinks are…

> inability of the government to devalue it.

This sounds like it seriously underestimates just how much influence a government can have.

First and foremost, they can make it illegal. This would immediately make the fact it can't be devalued moot, as people who'd use it become criminals by default.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#355

Post by fstanis »

chrismorgan wrote: post #26
briatx wrote: post #10

It has been clear for a while now that Bitcoin is an inferior payment system for the consumer: * The fees are higher. * The risk to the consumer is higher. * The difficulty of use is higher. * It is accepted at an extremely low amount of vendors and even that is falling. So you really how to wonder why people ever thought consumers would use it en masse.

One of your points is of dubious validity: fees may not be higher. Fees went very high when the network became congested; but when it’s not congested, they’re much lower than credit card systems are for normal businesses. https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/ suggests that right now, what equates to about nine US cents is sufficient for a basic transaction. And if you’re happy to wait an hour, then two cents ought to do you…

> when it’s not congested, they’re much lower than credit card systems are for normal businesses

So, it sounds like it only works if nobody uses it.

Sure, you can say we now have which is like Bitcoin, but solves this problem. This, however, is similar to pointing out there are credit cards with lower fees than what you mentioned (e.g. national ones), it's just the major ones that are expensive.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#356

Post by fstanis »

redisman wrote: post #239
err4nt wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A failed experiment to me would be one that wasn't able to run its full course, or from which no information can be gleaned. Bitcoin has run for a long time, we have gleaned a ton of useful information - as far as experiments are concerned this seems like it went bigger and better than expected, so it should be a very GOOD experiment!

I think it's really unfair to call Bitcoin "failed". It has unarguably changed the world. There was way too much hype about it changing everything.

> It has unarguably changed the world.

How so? I see nothing in my day-to-day life that's different because of Bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#357

Post by cc439 »

adventured wrote: post #245
cc439 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any first hand experience with buying gold from local dealers? I've never really looked into it but the vast majority of gold dealers in my city are also pawn shops geared toward purchasing gold rather than selling it. While I'm unsure as to their exact pricing model for selling gold, the way in which pawn shops are known to buy precious metals leads me to believe I'd be paying significantly more than wha…

The safest way to buy physical gold is directly from a mint like the US or Canadian mint (obviously assuming you trust the government/mint in question). The next best is to use a trusted dealer and buy the mint products that have verifiable serial numbers. For example: https://www.apmex.com/product/98353/1-oz-gold-bar-royal-cana... Canadian Mint 1oz bar, at a small mark-up over the price of gold. Comes sealed and has…

Now that is an actually reasonable markup. I guess my only concern there would be shipping, which can be insured but gets a bit pricey when you're insuring $1,200. Thanks for the link!

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#358

Post by fandango »

socrates1998 wrote: post #70

It sounds weird, but I think a big part of Bitcoin's, and other crypto's value, isn't in the day to day ability to use it to buy and sell things, it's the inability of the government to devalue it. This isn't as big a problem in many richer countries with relatively stable currencies, but I sure as hell would prefer Bitcoin to anything the Venezuelan government or the Argentinian government would issue. The kinks are…

The biggest part is plain and simple speculation. Betting on bitcoin and other crypto is like betting on human greed. Bitcoin could possibly be worth 1 million dollar, that is the main attractor. It is gambling, but in a fairly transparent and decentralized manner. I don't think it is fair to call it a ponzi (which it is not by definition because of the lack of a central actor) and also not a pyramid scheme (because it has genuine valid use cases).

It is just a market of buyers and sellers, extremely volatile and in a very immature and experimental state.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#359

Post by smsm42 »

keymone wrote: post #353
smsm42 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With paypal, if someone gives you trouble, you can call support and reverse the payment. And they have protection policies. With bitcoin, if anything happens, you're the idiot who bought into the hype and now getting what was coming you you. For consumer, there's a huge difference - that's why "ZERO FRAUD LIABILITY" is written on every credit card conditions in big friendly letters. Are there any zero fraud liability…

paypal is a product built on top of existing currency. bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product. there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd. one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution but also limiting the influence middleman (paypal) has - can't run away with your money, can't block the transaction ag…

> bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product

I can't, I don't have time. No, I understand you mean "somebody might build" - but so far, nobody did. When it changes, the evaluation changes too. So far, we aren't there by no means.

> there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd

Sure. How many of them are necessary to a typical credit card/cash user?

> one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution

You seem to be under impression dispute resolution is a technical problem in search of suitable algorithm. It's not - it is a social/service problem which needs careful balance between trust to various parties and careful calculation of how expensive each tweak to trust levels would be and how to keep fraud in check without pissing off too many people. It's not an algorithmic problem (at least not until we have strong AI).

> can't run away with your money

Which also means no possibility to curtail fraud - if the middle-man can't reverse transaction, what prevents me from selling you an iphone, sending a brick instead and leaving with the money? Or, alternatively, what prevents me from buying an iphone and claiming I got a brick instead, and getting my money back and a free iphone?

> can't block the transaction against will of both participants

Which also means feds close it after a month because it is being used to trade drugs. And seize all the funds there (if you're adventurous, you can sue the federal government for the return of the funds - maybe in 10 years you'll even succeed!)

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#360

Post by fwip »

lossolo wrote: post #187
fwip wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with subsidies, there's an effective price floor. Even with renewable energy there's an opportunity cost - you can sell it back to the grid. Plus the fixed costs of buying the solar panels and mining equipment in the first place.

> Even with renewable energy there's an opportunity cost - you can sell it back to the grid. Plus the fixed costs of buying the solar panels and mining equipment in the first place. In many cases this doesn't matter, as it 's being paid by someone else. Millions of teenagers mining crypto on their GPUs, their parents pay for electricity, what about enthusiasts? They will mine even if price is higher than the value of…

So, "The value of bitcoin will forever be propped up by people stealing electricity."
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