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Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

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Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#81
I feel like whenever I hear crazy stories like this about healthcare it usually involves these weird in or out of network issues. I'm certainly not an expert on healthcare, but is there no way to attack the problem from this angle?

If you have a hospital with a certain list price for a particular procedure, why is it legal for them to charge one insurance company 5% of that price and charge another insurance company or someone without insurance full price? It seems like exactly the kind of scenario that price discrimination laws are meant to prevent.

Similarly for the insurance plans themselves, why can you sell basically the same plan to employees of a large company for much cheaper than you sell it to employees of a small company? (This one might need to be a new law specific to insurance companies, because clearly there are many other products that give group discounts when selling to large companies, but I think health insurance should be treated differently).

I'm sure I'm missing what some of the downsides might be, but it seems like making these kinds of backroom network-based deals illegal in health insurance would go a long way in making prices more understandable/predictable, and that might allow for more fair competition on price to emerge.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article goes on to clarify the problem: the school district has a self-funded insurance plan. Actionable advice: check if your employer-provided healthcare is a self-funded insurance plan or a fully insured plan. And then look up the relevant consumer protections in your state for that type of plan. Also, in case you're wondering what the hell all those hospital administrators are dong, the answer is "shaking dow…

I wonder if the local county this school district is in, also provides only a "self-funded" plan to their employees. Are all the government employees getting screwed or just the teachers? It's a quaint ethical puzzle which is worse. So the last line, "less than half what Aetna paid", does that ostensibly mean the hospital is definitely charging an unreasonable price, and by having been paid twice what is reasonable b…

> does that ostensibly mean the hospital is definitely charging an unreasonable price

Not ostensibly, but actually.

The article goes on to identify some concrete charges that independent auditors felt were ridiculous, including charging $19k for stents that the hospital most likely purchased for about $2K.

> It's just a contractual reason he owes this money?

The hospital just straight up dropped all but $800 of the charges when they got PR heat.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#84
post #73

There are midterms coming up. Vote for change and don’t vote for anyone who took one cent from the insurers.

And here's a handy list of all representatives and how much they took from healthcare lobbyists. https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=H&cyc...

At least there's one thing with overwhelming, bipartisan support in Congress.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#85
post #7

> UPDATE: Monday, shortly after publication and broadcast of this story by Kaiser Health News and NPR, St. David’s said it was now willing to accept $782.29 to resolve the $108,951 balance because Drew Calver qualifies for its “financial assistance discount.” Sounds all fine and dandy until you realize that these charges will just be made up for by people that aren't able to get NPR to publish a story about them.

Not always. My mom had a quadruple bypass about 6 years ago during a gap year where she stopped working but didn't have Medicare yet. Unlucky. I think she was billed for around $180k.

She told them "I'm on Social Security for $1000/mo, I'll pay you $50/mo". It was basically that or sending it to collections and never getting a dime from a retiree. So they accepted and told her a "non-profit" paid for the doctor's portion of the bill, which was all but about $40k.

She'll probably be around another 10 years max, which means she'll end up paying about $10k of that balance.

Medical debt is the least concerning type of debt for most lenders. If you ever fall into this hole, don't sweat it. [Unsolicited advice.] Just let it go to collections. You'll get harassed for a little over a year. Debt older than a year is almost never pursued by collections agencies. After things quiet down start sending letters to the credits agencies saying the collections debt has been settled. The collections agency will usually slip up and not respond at some point and it'll be gone from your credit history.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#86
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahahahahaha. No. The American legal system is so stacked in favor of insurance companies it's ridiculous.

This isn’t true at all. Insurance is heavily regulated. If you can’t resolve an issue with your insurance, most states have arbitration committee that will smack down insurance companies pretty quickly.

Crucially, that's only true if you have the money and time to fight. For the people hurt worst by the system, they lack some or all of: knowledge that they can fight it, money with which to fight it (or again, knowledge that a lawyer will take it pro bono), and the time with which to fight it and not work one or more jobs. I know people on this forum are relatively well off, but everyone reading this should try to put themselves in the shoes of someone working multiple jobs, trying to take care of a sick family member, and facing predatory companies trying to bilk them for all they're worth.

That the government will protect you, in theory, is not the same thing as in practice.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#87
post #81

I feel like whenever I hear crazy stories like this about healthcare it usually involves these weird in or out of network issues. I'm certainly not an expert on healthcare, but is there no way to attack the problem from this angle? If you have a hospital with a certain list price for a particular procedure, why is it legal for them to charge one insurance company 5% of that price and charge another insurance company…

[deleted]

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds all fine and dandy until you realize that these charges will just be made up for by people that aren't able to get NPR to publish a story about them. No, St. David's has already fully recouped their costs and then some. They were simply trying to extract as much money as the stone could bleed.

I was going to respond saying that most hospitals are nonprofits and aren't actually making a great profit margin off this sort of overcharging. But then I looked it up and St. David's, despite having a religious nonprofit-sounding name, is actually owned by HCA Healthcare, which is a for-profit that has almost 4x'd its stock price over the past five years while acquiring more hospitals to grow. So, yeah, this one is…

My ex worked for HCA and she insisted that she could tell you the exact cost of a procedure before undergoing it.

Well at some point she needed surgery (at HCA), and about five months later after dealing with 10 < x < 20 bills including one we'd never heard about until collections came knocking she just looked at me and said "Nobody knows what this is going to cost." It really bums me out that a human being working in healthcare here isn't able to even remotely predict the cost of a procedure at the hospital at which they work.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#89

Well, it doesn't have to cost that much to take care of a heart attack. Remove the AMA from the equation and it'll clear up. The real problem is that we restrict the supply of doctors. Without that, competing hospitals can arise that will compete on price.

Supply of doctors is definitely an important issue. But prices are high not because they can't find doctors. It is high because they have no real competition. When someone is suffering from a heart attack what options do they have than to go to the nearest hospital? Even in non-emergency situations people chose to go to the healthcare provider nearest to them. Also even if we assume people magically able to chose any…

If this were true, then nations with deregulated health care would also have high prices. Instead they have low prices and better outcomes.

Patients shop on reputation. In a country with less regulation, like India, you see competing hospitals across the spectrum of price and performance. Everyone knows which ones are good and which ones are expensive. People know which hospitals they're going to attend before they fall sick. The outcomes in their top cardiology departments are way better than those in top American cardiology departments.

Their doctors perform way more surgeries and are therefore far more practiced and experienced. They are far cheaper because there are so many more of them.

Re: Insured, but Still Owing $109K for a Heart Attack

#90
post #49
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't they compete now or why can't you even get a price upfront from them? EDIT: I am responding to a comment that the AMA is the problem. Maybe the AMA is a problem but it has nothing to do with hospitals not competing over prices.

You can get a price upfront in my experience. Especially for standard procedures. And definitely for outpatient stuff. But it isn't reasonable to expect upfront pricing in things as complicated as heart surgery. Or where you are going in for unknown problems. There is no way to know what complications may arise or additional procedures, x-rays or scans may be required.

As someone who used to work in the medical field it can be a pain to even know how much insurances will reimburse for procedures. Especially when it comes to smaller / union insurance providers, health care providers have to call and wait for a fax or snail mail for a reimbursement table. This leads to balance billing or the provider just eating the cost.

On the consumer side I just found out about healthcare blue book and they have prices for just about any procedure.

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