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‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

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Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#52
post #28

Let us reflect that medical practice is one of the textbook examples for people making bad decisions due to Simpson's paradox. That the sheer number of highly opinionated people who are confident and wrong is staggering (take nutritional information, for example). That the risk of being embroiled in a good game of political or legal football is high. On top of that, this is a field that historically has had poor expo…

"the risk of being embroiled in a good game of ... legal football is high."

That's my personal experience as a parent, unless the pediatrician can absolutely rule out all possibility of any theoretical disease then all conversations with the pediatrician's office always end with an official recommendation to CYA by spending a day at the ER.

Two anecdotal heat exhaustion cases:

Me, like a quarter century ago, in the Army after setting a new personal record on a daytime hot summer windless humid PT test while stationed temporarily in the deep deep south; typical heat exhaustion, no energy, puke, dizzy, gray world, squadmates turned me in for "wobbling on my feet too much". PS and medic look at me, "well, you're still sweating, so ..." dump a canteen of water on my head and torso, force me to drink a canteen of water, wait to see I don't puke for a couple minutes, escorted by another soldier to sit in front of an air conditioner with him ordered to watch me drink another canteen of water for an hour. Treatment cost approx five minutes of medic labor and one hour of chaperone solder labor to observe me while I recovered, and three canteens of drinking water.

Preteen daughter gets heat exhaustion on the hottest most humid day of the year after a long day working hard outdoors despite being well hydrated, no energy, puke, dizzy, but still conscious and sweating, wife gets nervous resulting in call to pediatrician resulting in spending rest of day and most of night in the ER running EKG heart tests and blood tests and MRI the skull looking for tumors. She wasn't even dehydrated enough to need an IV, so they actually treated nothing, merely immense amounts of diagnostic screening to rule out every possible ailment that could cause dizzyness (which seems to be practically everything). Treatment cost in the five digits, paid by everyone else via insurance premiums. But, at least the pediatrician CYA from legal standpoint.

To some extent the real cost of "malpractice insurance" isn't directly paid as "malpractice insurance" but is funded by immense insurance premiums.

I looked it up for fun and the odds of a teen girl being diagnosed with a brain tumor is approximately one in ten thousand per year; the odds of a teen girl getting dizzy on the hottest sweatiest day of the year after working hard outdoors is somewhat higher, but legal CYA is very expensive.

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#53

Emergency doctor here, I have to say that diagnosing a sick child is one of the hardest things you can do in medicine (aside from figuring out why someone is feeling 'dizzy'). The limiting step here is that we can't do blood tests and x-ray/CT on everyone that walks in the door (which itself can lead to harm: https://emergencymedicinecases.com/overinvestigation-emergen... ) I work in one of the busiest ER's in Canada…

Someone else in the comments made a good point about capturing the common words patients tell providers and being able to parse that. If you could transform what a patient is telling you from their words into a concise set of standardized symptoms, then you have essentially done what any other provider does when they obtain a focused history. That could allow a model to prompt the specific questions needed, or request the provider to look for pertinent physical exam findings.

On the other hand (maybe easier?), I think we could also improve the use of some of our less costly and non-harmful techniques, such as ultrasound, to improve our screening.

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#54
There is probably something wrong in the way medicine is being taught. Unlike physics, medicine might be still a largely empirical occupation, devoid of rigorous experimentation and evidence based science.

It is slowly changing. For many years, the cause of peptic ulcers was thought to be stress - countless doctors repeating this mantra to the patient. It took a heroic act of Barry Marshall [1] to conduct an experiment (on himself) and demonstrate that it is, indeed, false, and identify the root cause.

I wish we approached medicine more like physics and less as a closed and secretive (and lucrative) skill.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who can build an ML model to catch these clues is going to make billions. You'd be surprised. IBM poured billions into Watson and appears to have been pretty successful in nearly reaching parity with a certified oncologist, but the results were dismissed because it didn't outperform them. > At first, Manipal used Watson to recommend treatment options for all cancer patients, said oncologist S.P. Somashekhar.…

It is used to recommend treatment options, not diagnosis

Treatment oriented medicine is a problem in and of itself.

There is no treatment for medically diagnosed Celliac disease other than don't eat wheat for the rest of your life; its hard to profit off that in the medical biz, therefore, there being no treatment, mental gymnastics to disprove anything treatable are mandatory across several pediatricians and gastroenterologists and oncologists we talked to for a year or so WRT our son. Finally after ruling out child abuse and cancer, almost out of desperation, they did a quick blood antibody test leading to a stomach cilia biopsy and they're like "sorry its not good news like treatable cancer, its untreatable gluten allergy". Somehow the poor little guy must have given blood for a hundred tests before the antibody test came back with higher levels than the ENT had ever seen in a test result, and the biopsy confirmed it. Remove wheat from his diet and in about a week he was the healthiest kid ever.

The insane part is about one percent of the population is somewhere along the Celiac spectrum of symptoms; my kid somewhat along the extreme edge, most not so bad. But docs will do anything to avoid a simple blood test / biopsy diagnosis because there's no profitable treatment or pill to push.

Somehow, almost accidentally or unintentionally, western medicine in the USA can provide good outcomes, but the average citizen playing the game doesn't understand that its primarily a legal CYA game secondarily a treatment commissioned salesmen game, also a money making racket, and only a distant minor goal is actually helping people live better lives. If people are helped by the medical establishment its almost by accident as a side effect, helping people is definitely not the primary purpose of the establishment.

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#56
post #49
post #19

Medicine seriously needs a data-science approach.

can you elaborate on that? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Well, it's quite simple.

Right now the quality of a diagnosis depends heavily on the experience of the doctor. One of the problems is that even an experienced doctor has little experience with rare conditions.

In this age of data-science, we can replace the doctor's diagnosis with a number of standard diagnostic tests (observations), which can be performed by a nurse and/or lab-worker. The diagnosis is then determined based on "correlation" with a data-set, collected over an entire population.

The best possible treatment plan can also be computed based on this diagnosis (which could be more refined than a doctor could possibly make, because it can work with probabilities instead of a single outcome).

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#57
post #51

Vets can’t talk to their patients either. I would be curious of how their approach compares to pediatricians’.

I'd say we have 3 advantages over pediatricians.

First we often deal with adults who are a bit less susceptible to die very fast than infants, which gives more time.

Second we have the owner's wallet as a set limit. Sometimes you do with what you're allowed, and one can only go that far with a limited panel of tests or when hospitalisation is refused.

Third an animal death is more acceptable than a human, let alone a child.

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who can build an ML model to catch these clues is going to make billions. You'd be surprised. IBM poured billions into Watson and appears to have been pretty successful in nearly reaching parity with a certified oncologist, but the results were dismissed because it didn't outperform them. > At first, Manipal used Watson to recommend treatment options for all cancer patients, said oncologist S.P. Somashekhar.…

That's not a great definition of parity. We'd want accuracy and specificity numbers linked to outcomes, not concurrence. The times when Watson agrees with doctors is effectively irrelevant - results would be the same whether or not he was added. We need to highlight whether, given a disagreement, Watson was better or worse for outcomes.

> The times when Watson agrees with doctors is effectively irrelevant

If your question is "can Watson improve treatment over an oncologist?" (ignoring issues of expense and availability), then it doesn't matter.

When you're talking about how close it is to "parity", it matters a lot.

If Watson exactly matched the oncologist in all but one out of a million cases, and in that millionth case caused the patient to explode, that would be extremely impressive, and Watson would be extremely useful. It would be nonsense to exclude all the matching cases.

Re: ‘Why didn’t you think this baby was ill?’ Decision-making in acute paediatrics

#60
post #28

Let us reflect that medical practice is one of the textbook examples for people making bad decisions due to Simpson's paradox. That the sheer number of highly opinionated people who are confident and wrong is staggering (take nutritional information, for example). That the risk of being embroiled in a good game of political or legal football is high. On top of that, this is a field that historically has had poor expo…

As an anecdote, I recently went to the hospital suspecting a kidney infecting. I had all the signs (pain on both sides under the skin, smelly urine, a bit of fever that came and went) so I told the nurse I was pretty certain I had a kidney infection.

When the doctor saw me, she took my urine only and when it came back "perfect" she said I definitely did not have a kidney infection, that my pain was probably mechanical.

Two nights later and I couldn't move or think from the fever, the pain in my kidneys was so severe I could barely breathe, and I was fearing I was on the fast-track to sepsis (which I've had before).

Apparently the tech testing my urine sample fucked up, which is why the results came back perfect. The strange thing is, the doctor herself said she was surprised it was perfect, but took it at face value despite my insistence that I definitely had a kidney infection, especially considering I have a history of such infections. Also, when she said my pain was most likely "mechanical", I told her I hadn't done any intense activity lately, and she said I probably slept wrong, ignoring the fact I said I'd had a slight fever-- when they tested me at the hospital I had no fever.

It was a really weird experience. I understand skepticism against a patient's self-diagnosis, but I was claiming a kidney infection-- this is a common diagnosis for women with my symptoms and I've had many kidney infections before so I know what it feels like. Still, the doctor trusted that her three quick tests were perfect (urine sample, temperature, mechanical inspection) and her mis-diagnosis could have caused me permanent damage (kidney scarring or sepsis).

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