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JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

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Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#21
post #2

Serious question, I don't want to attack this presentation but in general am I one of the few that finds meme annoying in slides?

I see how it can be annoying; for me it's only mildly entertaining. However from a structural point of view I have the feeling that it's it's fine if only slightly obscured (how I am, what I don't like about notebooks point 1, example, point 2,...). At least at the end there's some summary slides that states his main points/gripes (how you could win me over)

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#22
post #2

Serious question, I don't want to attack this presentation but in general am I one of the few that finds meme annoying in slides?

I disagree. The memes give me memory cues when I think about the talk later. I have a visual memory so maybe this is why? Also they are lighthearted and fun and life is short so why not have some fun even when being serious?

They only work in that capacity if you already watch a lot of memes, so they effectively act as a shibboleth (in-group out-group separator) for separating people who spend a lot of time on reddit from those that don't.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#23
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The memes give me memory cues when I think about the talk later. I have a visual memory so maybe this is why? Also they are lighthearted and fun and life is short so why not have some fun even when being serious?

They only work in that capacity if you already watch a lot of memes, so they effectively act as a shibboleth (in-group out-group separator) for separating people who spend a lot of time on reddit from those that don't.

I'm not a Reddit user nor do I keep up with memes so I hadn't seen most of these memes until looking at this slidedeck.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#24
I seriously cannot agree more.

Jupyter notebooks were fun to use for a bit, then I hit the inevitable wall of "ok, now let's turn this into a real, properly built script, but now everything is breaking for inexplicable reasons".

Notebooks are fine for early stage experimenting, but if you've got to the point where you start up you are relying on a notebook for anything, or your workflow consists of "start up notebook, run cells until I get to the one I'm working on" then you need to stop, and build it into something proper.

Experimentation is fine, but it should not come at the cost of writing things properly when the time comes, and they are not an excuse for not knowing some good software engineering. Serious alarm bells go off in my head when I read tweets like "Data science code doesn't need to follow the rules of good software engineering".

Edit: that remote notebook - is that honestly not one of the most terrifying things you've seen? That runs so counter to almost every good bit of software design and engineering practice about clarity, maintainability, good practice, security, etc that I can think of. It's the very definition of indecipherable, inscrutable hidden state and unknown side effects.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The memes give me memory cues when I think about the talk later. I have a visual memory so maybe this is why? Also they are lighthearted and fun and life is short so why not have some fun even when being serious?

They only work in that capacity if you already watch a lot of memes, so they effectively act as a shibboleth (in-group out-group separator) for separating people who spend a lot of time on reddit from those that don't.

Time to create a meme-based learning startup.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#27
The code written by a couple of "data scientists" I was working with is the worst code I have ever seen. They don't care, they just want to have an experimental results. The problem starts when their experimental "code" needs to be used on production or they are asked to describe how it works. Why cannot we just get good programmers and train them as data scientists?

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#28
I only use notebooks in R (via knitr). Unless you choose to cache specific blocks by flagging it, it re-runs the whole notebook from scratch every time... So personally I haven't had any of these problems before. Further, the rendering is static, so you can't really choose to run things out of order either.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#29
post #2

Serious question, I don't want to attack this presentation but in general am I one of the few that finds meme annoying in slides?

No, I find them annoying as well.

They aren't fun, don't have anything to do with technical content and just put me off, specially if the presenter thinks s/he could have a 2nd job as stand up comedian.

Re: JupyterCon: I don't like Notebooks [slides]

#30

The code written by a couple of "data scientists" I was working with is the worst code I have ever seen. They don't care, they just want to have an experimental results. The problem starts when their experimental "code" needs to be used on production or they are asked to describe how it works. Why cannot we just get good programmers and train them as data scientists?

I work in data science (came in via a maths background) but I agree 1000%. My software engineering is pretty self taught, but I make an effort to follow best coding practices at all times.

That said, I think it goes both ways: people from the sciences tend to be cavalier coders, and people from software background tend to be cavalier about the underlying mathematics.

Seems to me that the solution needs to be a stronger culture of both increased scientific and software engineering rigor.

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