Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#91

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

macNchz wrote: post #15

The author's experience is very similar to my own–my parents called me 'the sleepless wonder' when I was a kid, and by high school getting out of bed for morning classes was excruciating. In college I mostly chose classes that started later in the day and wound up doing much better academically. Since college I've made a point of taking jobs that offer flexible hours, which thankfully seems to be increasingly common.…

> by high school getting out of bed for morning classes was excruciating. In college I mostly chose classes that started later in the day and wound up doing much better academically.

I spent high school thinking I was exceptionally prone to getting songs stuck in my head. It turns out that I just get them stuck in my head when I'm extremely tired, and that state was so continuous that I never noticed there were times it wasn't true.

That's a relatively harmless example, but I do seriously wonder how I spent ~8 months/year for 4 years getting 2-6 hours of sleep per night. Getting that amount of sleep distorts everything from my personality to my ability to drive safely, and it's more than a bit alarming to me how little attention we pay to what it means to have teens spend most of their developing years shockingly sleep-deprived.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#92

Post by gmiller123456 » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #22

What really bugs me is the self-righteousness of the early riser. There's definitely some kind of power dynamic going on. Perhaps the joke should be: How do you know if someone gets up at 5am? Because they tell you.

I think there's a lot of selection bias in your assertion that early risers are self righteous. There are people I have known for many years before finding out they were early risers. One of the biggest surprises was from a guy I had been working with for about 10 years who was notorious for coming in late, usually after lunch. I was on the local news at about 5am one day and he asked me about it. Of course my first response was "What the (&# were you doing up at 5am?", and he said "Oh, I'm always up that early, I just don't feel like going in to work until later."

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#93

Post by cc-d » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

krapsna wrote: post #30

dtien wrote: post #2

As someone who also has atypical sleep patterns ( late sleeper, early riser ), there were some interesting points in here. I know there's been research done as well on the number of hours of sleep required rather than 'when' it occurs, but those haven't seem to have reached a consensus yet. I will say some of these articles sometimes read satirically. Notably, they have a diagnosis for people who can't sleep at 'norm…

Note: I pounded this out pretty quickly and don't have time to proofread. Sorry for any grammatical errors. I will say some of these articles sometimes read satirically. Notably, they have a diagnosis for people who can't sleep at 'normal' hours: Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I have been struggling with being unable to sleep during normal hours my entire life. My parents would yank the covers off of me in the morning…

Honestly, I've found marijuana functions better as a sleep aid than benadryl/melatonin/etc. It might be something worth looking into, as it's probably the most powerful 'sleep-aid' available which doesn't cause long-term dependency or health issues.

Long term benadryl use is pretty bad for your brain/body. Long term use of anticholinergics in general has been strongly linked to the development of various severe health issues, including alzheimers and dementia. Beneadryl specifically has been linked to the development of prostate issues as well.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#94

Post by ecolonsmak » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

krapsna wrote: post #30

dtien wrote: post #2

As someone who also has atypical sleep patterns ( late sleeper, early riser ), there were some interesting points in here. I know there's been research done as well on the number of hours of sleep required rather than 'when' it occurs, but those haven't seem to have reached a consensus yet. I will say some of these articles sometimes read satirically. Notably, they have a diagnosis for people who can't sleep at 'norm…

Note: I pounded this out pretty quickly and don't have time to proofread. Sorry for any grammatical errors. I will say some of these articles sometimes read satirically. Notably, they have a diagnosis for people who can't sleep at 'normal' hours: Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I have been struggling with being unable to sleep during normal hours my entire life. My parents would yank the covers off of me in the morning…

I've struggled with the same thing all my life, sleepless nights and foggy days. I once thought about it and determined that there were years where I DIDN'T have this issue and came to the realization that was when I was involved in high school sports or college athletics. If I don't get a 5-7 mile run into my day or 45mins of swimming or weightlifting, etc.. why should I be tired? If all I've done all day is breathe and walk around there's no way I'm going to be able to sleep until like 2-3am. So perhaps absent hard exercise I'd fall into the 25-27 hour day cycle that others have described here in tis thread. but If I want to be on the same clock as most others I'd better make strenuous exercise a priority.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#95

Post by adrianmonk » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:03 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #71

adrianmonk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to work (or other morning activities), I think there are actually two aspects to this that often get confused. One is what you're talking about: the way people regard waking up early as virtuous. The other is that, how early or late you arrive to an event sends signals about your attitude toward the event. Or at least it is interpreted that way. For example, if you are very excited about seeing a partic…

Isn't what you saying exactly the problem mmaunder talked about? I like to sleep from 3-12 and I like to take naps at 18. This has nothing to do with me being unable to do a job or being not intersted in it. I worked for a bunch of people who gave me a hard time for not being awake at 9.

> Isn't what you saying exactly the problem mmaunder talked about?

I was trying to make a distinction between perceptions of character and perceptions of attitude.

Though not everyone agrees, many people see waking up early as a valuable part of being self-disciplined and hardworking. That's a perception about character.

But that can't account for perceptions people have around events that happen in the afternoon or evening, and yet people still read things into arrival time for those events too. So there is a second factor in perception.

> This has nothing to do with me being unable to do a job or being not intersted in it.

I agree that it's absolutely possible for this to be the case. But perception doesn't always reflect reality.

Often people really do understand and just like to tease others who don't fit the mold. But sometimes people make assumptions, so basically I'm trying to be aware of what assumptions they might make and why just in case it happens.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#96

Post by gnulinux » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #7

Based on the title, I was hoping it was about something else, something I talk about frequently with people who think they have sleep problems: human sleep is naturally biphasic. I know a lot of people who think waking up in the middle of the night means they have a disease, insomnia. When the truth is that before electric light, normal sleep was going to bed when it got dark, being awake for a while in the middle of…

I sleep biphasically during most weekends. Partly because I work and work-out a lot during week days. By the time it's Saturday, I'm both mentally and physically exhaust. So, I need more resting and sleeping a few hours after lunch works well. In order not to make my sunday night hard to sleep, I sleep a bit less (6 to 7 hours) and then sleep a few more hours (~3 hours)

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#97

Post by wpietri » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #13

wpietri wrote: post #7

Based on the title, I was hoping it was about something else, something I talk about frequently with people who think they have sleep problems: human sleep is naturally biphasic. I know a lot of people who think waking up in the middle of the night means they have a disease, insomnia. When the truth is that before electric light, normal sleep was going to bed when it got dark, being awake for a while in the middle of…

Insomnia probably isn't limited to a simple reflection of a biphasic sleep-related problem. As an example, someone with naturally high anxiety could get on the most biphasic sleep schedule possible and still suffer from insomnia due to their anxiety about what tomorrow brings, etc.

Sure. My point is not that insomnia doesn't exist, only that waking up in the middle of the night is not necessarily an indication of insomnia.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#98

Post by krapsna » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

cc-d wrote: post #93

krapsna wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: I pounded this out pretty quickly and don't have time to proofread. Sorry for any grammatical errors. I will say some of these articles sometimes read satirically. Notably, they have a diagnosis for people who can't sleep at 'normal' hours: Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I have been struggling with being unable to sleep during normal hours my entire life. My parents would yank the covers off of me in the morning…

Honestly, I've found marijuana functions better as a sleep aid than benadryl/melatonin/etc. It might be something worth looking into, as it's probably the most powerful 'sleep-aid' available which doesn't cause long-term dependency or health issues. Long term benadryl use is pretty bad for your brain/body. Long term use of anticholinergics in general has been strongly linked to the development of various severe healt…

I appreciate you and the other poster pointing out that long term benadryl use isn't good. I really wasn't aware of that.

I appreciate the marijuana suggestion too, but I find that I'm unable to sleep after partaking. I get intermittent erratic heartbeats that make it impossible :(

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#99

Post by elhudy » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #42

elhudy wrote: post #26

>According to Dr. Walker, about 40 percent of the population are morning people, 30 percent are evening people, and the remainder land somewhere in between. I'm not a sleep expert or a neuroscientist, but I take issue with being branded into a sleep-band that is "hard-written" into my DNA. I perform at my worst when I wake at times other than my current habit allows for - whether that is early or late. I don't believ…

It's not some random commenter that assumed the cronotype though, it's scientists. So, you can take it with them. Or you could an outlier, but it's not like this flexibility you mention is statistically true for most people. What has been studied is statistically true.

It is understandable that my ethos is not on par with Dr. Walker's, and that my anecdote would indeed make me an outlier.

With that being said, I am legitimately unable to find any conclusive research that says there are effectively three "cronotype" bands, and 100% of the population falls into one of these three bands, and that these bands are completely DNA-driven and non-dynamic. Every source of this information seems to be behind a "buy my book" paywall from some inspirational speaker like Daniel Pink.

The article says: "For further proof, researchers at Rockefeller University last year announced the discovery of a gene mutation that apparently accounts for D.S.P.S."

In that study, the author says, " According to the new research, the mutation may be present in as many as one in 75 people in some populations." While there might be more genes which lend themselves to DSPS, the numbers from the study don't exactly lend extra credibility to the argument.

Can you help me to understand where it has been statistically proven that 100% of humans fall into roughly three equal bands of morning/evening/between, and that this has been solidly linked to genetics rather than environmental/habits or a combination of both? Most studies on humans don't make such bold claims because genetics are so diverse across populations that the study population itself would need to be enormous.

Re: Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn’t a Problem

#100

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

danvasquez29 wrote: post #57

LifeQuestioner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish I could sleep by 2am. It would make life possible. My natural sleep pattern is 5am-12. I've literally spent the last decade trying to solve it. Until, I gave up.

it's been a conscious effort on my part and I'm still very susceptible to falling off the wagon for a week at a time. I don't think it's very natural for people tbh. I was always a late worker and still kind of am when the shit really hits the fan, but I am a believer that when I have to put in the extra hours, I'm usually more efficient in the morning that late at night. That motivates me to keep trying.

For some people it is the most natural thing in the world.