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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#231

Post by agorabinary »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #228
agorabinary wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can send less than a satoshi to someone across the globe for virtually zero fees, anonymously and without any need to wait for block confirmations? And all of this works right now on mainnet? Bitcoin progress has always consisted of overcoming allegedly insurmountable problems, Lightning dev is no different. Next up is solving efficient routing and intermittent nodes.

>>Bitcoin progress has always consisted of overcoming allegedly insurmountable problems, Lightning dev is no different. Bitcoin's founder solved one allegedly insurmountable problem: the Byzantine Generals' problem. It's irrational to believe this means Bitcoin Core's development team, who had no part in the original design of Bitcoin, will solve more problems of this class. Bitcoin Core should have fully exploited t…

Ever since LN was first proposed, skeptics have asserted problem after problem as an insurmountable obstacle. And time after time they have been proven wrong.

If you really think that big blocks solve anything, then by all means just use Bcash - though of course Bcash itself is melting down into separate forks as we speak..

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#232

Post by jchw »

acdha wrote: post #215
jchw wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can use Bitcoin today, right now, right here. I actually do occasionally, it's how I pay for VPN service. So is it a failure? No. It's a successful payment network. It didn't cause a libertarian Utopia or whatever, but that's a pretty lofty goal for a conceptual currency based on cryptographic hashing. I have nothing else to say here.

That nicely demonstrates my point: you’re a supporter and you use it infrequently with apparently one company. That does not sound like the revolution in personal finance we were breathlessly promised.

I'm a supporter? By what definition of supporter? This may very well be the first time I've ever discussed Bitcoin in a forum. I don't support Bitcoin the same way I don't support Hanes clothing. It's just a thing I causally use. It works. Why are you trying to pigeon hole me personally? Who promised you this revolution, did Satoshi personally?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#233

Post by conanbatt »

WJW wrote: post #199
conanbatt wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with several of your statements. First, bitcoin has a monetary policy, and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing: more appealing that storing gold vs fiat, since gold has a less predictable monetary policy. Gold had been chosen as currency for most of history, across cultures and languages. In countries where the currency breaks down, things like chocolate, potatoes or corn get into c…

> and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing This is only very appealing if: - It is never necessary to change monetary policy. - The same monetary policy is appropriate for all nations. - The monetary policy that was chosen by the bitcoin dev team is exactly the right one.

I think thats attempting to put the burden of a states monetary policy to a virtual currency. I dont think its necessary for bitcoin to fullfill some of the roles monetary policy does: bitcoin doesn't care about unemployment. At the same time it does not have the benefits typical monetary policy has: that it can force people to take the money, meaning that monetary policy in itself would be limited in effect.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#234

Post by conanbatt »

crististm wrote: post #219
conanbatt wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with several of your statements. First, bitcoin has a monetary policy, and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing: more appealing that storing gold vs fiat, since gold has a less predictable monetary policy. Gold had been chosen as currency for most of history, across cultures and languages. In countries where the currency breaks down, things like chocolate, potatoes or corn get into c…

I'm sorry but your analogy is stretched at best. Unlike gold, potatoes rot...

That was a reference to Venezuela, where I read that sometimes barter is done with potatoes. I didnt say its a good currency, but it has happened.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#235

Post by beaner »

adiusmus wrote: post #127
sgeisler wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another fork of bitcoin. That's factually wrong. Lightning is a protocol on top of Bitcoin (like HTTP is built on TCP) and not a fork. It has a different set of trade offs: transactions on it are instant, but one should only store small amounts on it (like what you would carry in your purse) since your money on it can be stolen if you are offline for too long (and you did not pay someone to monitor the network for…

And having money stolen from my wallet because I haven’t logged in recently is NOT useful for a currency.

It's a technical caveat that exists now, but there's nothing categorically preventing additional technology to help users prevent this fate without much work.

One thing I don't understand is why so many people seem to have this "Bitcoin CAN not, therefore it WILL not" attitude. Bitcoin is software, it is editable, it is being actively developed. Most of us here, I thought, were familiar with the process of improving software over time by working on it, providing solutions we didn't have before.

We don't write code once and say, "welp, software cannot do this thing, because it doesn't already do this thing." What?? People would think you're an idiot.

Yet this is the most common type of argument against crypto, even here on HN.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#236

Post by mathattack »

sorokod wrote: post #138
mathattack wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illiquid investments can still have value if they’re out of the reach of governments. (Governments can’t decide the exchange rate, or tax/confiscate them) This is a stretch in the US, but less so elsewhere. I’m not a holder because it’s too speculative an investment for me.

So what happens when one actually does wants to liquidate?

Go into another currency. (Yes it’s risky, but not compared to cash in Venezuela)

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#237

Post by redisman »

tedunangst wrote: post #148
salawat wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point is the fundamental principles of fractional reserve are flawed, and the system will alwayssuffer from the looming threat of a bank run. It's rather disingenuous to say that people having money stolen from them isn't a problem when you have a system that cyclically chucks out an Enron or Sub-Prime mortgage crisis every ten years or so that typically ends up getting resolved on the taxpayer's dime. The defini…

I have no idea how switching to bitcoin for currency would prevent Enron.

Or something like a bank run. If everyone started cashing out their BTC then.. the price would crash. I guess you'd still have your 0$ in the real world bitcoins as consolation.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#238

Post by smsm42 »

I am not surprised. I am a programmer with decades of experience under my belt, and I have no idea how to install bitcoin in a way that would allow me convenient use of it. No, I can install the apps, and I can spend a month or two waiting until it downloads the whole 40+G of current blockchain, or I can trust some site that says it'd fix it for me, or I can open an account on any of the exchanges and pray to cryptogods it's not the one that is going to be robbed or go bust next. But why would I?

Now, if I would plan to trade in commodities that local government is frowning upon, or speculatively invest in assets that make Las Vegas look like index funds, it would be worth my while. But I don't, so it isn't.

Now make a step from myself - the experienced professional who actually knows what Bitcoin is and can probably explain how it works without wading too far from the truth - to a person who doesn't know the difference between "browser" and "internet". Why on earth would they go through this trouble - and more importantly, why on earth anybody who cares about them would advice them to go there at all? My advice to anybody who is not an agressive risk investor or a person with interests misaligned with current law would be "not with a ten foot pole". Right now it's so ripe with opportunities for both unintentional screwups and intentional skullduggery that I don't see how people can do consumer commerce with it.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#239

Post by redisman »

err4nt wrote: post #3
jonny_eh wrote: post #2

When can we call Bitcoin a failed experiment? And don't tell me it was "always about storing value", that's not in the original paper.

A failed experiment to me would be one that wasn't able to run its full course, or from which no information can be gleaned. Bitcoin has run for a long time, we have gleaned a ton of useful information - as far as experiments are concerned this seems like it went bigger and better than expected, so it should be a very GOOD experiment!

I think it's really unfair to call Bitcoin "failed". It has unarguably changed the world. There was way too much hype about it changing everything.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#240

Post by smsm42 »

deevolution wrote: post #90
bobthepanda wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what advantage does it have over gold? Advantages of gold vs. Bitcoin: - gold is pretty easy to find, not that hard to buy for the average consumer; BTC is anything but - gold is physical in form and securing it is not hard; BTC is not physical, exchanges get hacked with losses to accounts, in the event of a natural disaster or some event where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC. (So…

Maybe its a generational thing, but i have no clue how i would go about buying/trading gold and i dont think anyone in my friend group does either. Bitcoin is far more accessible.

You are but one google search away from discovering the local coin shop - if you live in US at least. Other countries may be different, in some it would indeed be a challenge. Bitcoin is accessible as far as you trust middlemen, having local bitcoin setup with a secure wallet is not something average consumer would feel comfortable with, last time I checked.
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