Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 369 posts

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#211

Post by CryptoPunk »

gammateam wrote: post #204
CryptoPunk wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different than TCP/IP in that every transaction changes the topography of a payment channel network, by changing the maximum amount that can be sent across various channels. This is a fundamental difference. Moreover, even if LN worked as a full substitute for on-chain transactions (all indications point to only a very centralized hub and spoke LN model working efficiently), Bitcoin's three transactions per seco…

Yes this is something I'm following too. So although Bitcoin has a low transaction per second limitation, the database Transaction objects can contain hundreds of transactions between users. This is what batching does. Segwit further helps lower the size of Transaction objects. And further proposals also lower that further.

>>the database Transaction objects can contain hundreds of transactions between users.

Can you elaborate or provide a link?

If you're referring to off-chain transactions through LN that are 'batched' on chain: these cannot set up payment channels. On-chain transactions for payment channel set up are the necessary minimum for the LN, and even to do just this, Bitcoin's block size limit doesn't come close to being adequate.

As for Segwit, it's a one time limit increase to something like 1.67 MB per 10 minutes (~2 KB/s). The limit needs a couple order of magnitude increase to make Bitcoin viable as a global currency.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#212

Post by grubles »

BitcoinIsCash wrote: post #161
grubles wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin can serve as both digital gold and cash. The Lightning Network (a network of bi-directional payment channels) supports instant sub-1-cent micropayments.

The Lightning Network is not settlement. It's like an IOU, that depends on the eventually-settled state of all associated channels.

It's not like an IOU. They are literally signed (by both parties of the channel) transactions that have yet to be broadcasted and included into blocks. You aren't sending something that is worthless to the counterparty. You both agree what the channel balance is. If there is a disagreement to the state of the channel, the base layer is the ultimate arbiter.

It's a smart contract between two parties.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#213

Post by tzs »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #193
tzs wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. There is one group of miners for whom electricity costs and Bitcoin price don't really matter much: home miners in cold regions whose homes used electrical resistan…

This logic is flawed because it doesn't consider the fact that we have more efficient heaters than electric space heaters. In particular, the two main alternatives are gas (more efficient because you skip inefficient fuel -> electricity steps) and heat pumps (more efficient because you draw in heat from outside). Compared to these alternatives, Bitcoin miners make very, very inefficient heaters.

> Compared to these alternatives, Bitcoin miners make very, very inefficient heaters

...which is why I specifically talked about people "whose homes used electrical resistance heating". Many areas do not have gas available by pipe, and having it delivered by truck in liquid form is often expensive. People living in rental units may not be allowed to install a heat pump, and heat pumps have a high up front cost that keeps out many people who aren't blocked by any other restrictions.

Also, even people with other, more efficient, heat sources might have situations where electrical resistance heat makes sense. For example, it may save money at night to turn down a whole house heat pump to a level that would be uncomfortably cold, and use an electrical space heater to just keep your bedroom warmer.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#214

Post by acdha »

DINKDINK wrote: post #201
acdha wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a household name because of speculation, however, and statistically almost nobody uses it for the kind of decentralized transactions for which it was originally pitched. The number of vendors accepting it has gone down over time (e.g. Steam, Microsoft) due to the endemic problems and many of the people who claim to use it (even here) are actually using the credit card network with government currencies for the a…

>nobody uses it for the kind of decentralized transactions for which it was originally pitched You're misinterpreting absence of evidence as evidence of absence which is a logical fallacy. clearly there's enough of a market for trustless wealth storage enough to support a $100 Billion dollar market cap. Maybe you think that the world will need less and less trustless wealth storage in the future and you're short bitc…

1. Before accusing other people of logical errors, check to make sure you’re not making one of your own, such as assuming that the current market cap of something is completely backed by real value. Pets.com and Webvan had plenty of market cap right until they didn’t - and a pure fiat currency like Bitcoin has a floor of zero because the only value is the network of people who continue paying to operate it.

2. If a significant number of people were using Bitcoin to replace currency usage, as per the original manifesto, they’d leave evidence behind. You’d see retail transactions, it’d show up in financial reports, the network having problems would make the news because of the inconvenience to businesses, PayPal and western union would be reporting lower usage, etc.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#215

Post by acdha »

jchw wrote: post #194
acdha wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a household name because of speculation, however, and statistically almost nobody uses it for the kind of decentralized transactions for which it was originally pitched. The number of vendors accepting it has gone down over time (e.g. Steam, Microsoft) due to the endemic problems and many of the people who claim to use it (even here) are actually using the credit card network with government currencies for the a…

I can use Bitcoin today, right now, right here. I actually do occasionally, it's how I pay for VPN service. So is it a failure? No. It's a successful payment network. It didn't cause a libertarian Utopia or whatever, but that's a pretty lofty goal for a conceptual currency based on cryptographic hashing. I have nothing else to say here.

That nicely demonstrates my point: you’re a supporter and you use it infrequently with apparently one company. That does not sound like the revolution in personal finance we were breathlessly promised.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#217

Post by ttoinou »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #173
ttoinou wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than 21 millions since bitcoins can be divided. And no, it could serve as a digital gold / long term investment, and others crypto currencies could be used for day to day transaction

What? That's like saying it's okay if there's only 21 million US dollars, they can be divided into pennies. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. Gold does. There's no long-term investment there when even pizza places and Steam think the "currency" is bunk. It's one thing if Goldman Sachs thinks the currency is worthless, but another issue entirely if the digital equivalent of Circle-K won't accept your virtual dollary-doo…

I didn't say it was "okay". It was not an argument. The fact that there are max 21 millions bitcoins is known to everybody but doesn't say much about the total supply since it can be divided. And it cannot be divided into infinity, the smallest unit is the satoshi, so why not talk about the max number of satoshis if you want to make an argument about the max supply of unit of currency ?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#218

Post by keymone »

dmoy wrote: post #68
keymone wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convenience is a matter of development effort. Things like control over ownership, transparency, censorship and oppression resistance are not, they must be the fundamentals the system is built on. That Bitcoin is used for shady stuff and is harder to track is a red herring for all 10 years of its existence. Come back when Bitcoin’s usage for said stuff is within order of magnitude of USD’s market share.

GP was not talking about using Bitcoin for crime, but rather the (extremely common) crime of having your money stolen via fraud or whatever. In USD you have recourse there to be made whole. In btc, you do not.

You have no recourse when your cash is stolen unless you’re insured against that. You have some recourse when stuff from your bank account is stolen because you’re paying the insurance in bank fees and taxes.

Those are products you’re paying for. Similar products (and much more flexible/advanced) can be built for bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#219

Post by crististm »

conanbatt wrote: post #151
TACIXAT wrote: post #21

A currency with no mechanism for monetary policy is not going to be adopted. Bitcoin is purely deflationary for more reasons than just people losing their keys. For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. So yo…

I disagree with several of your statements. First, bitcoin has a monetary policy, and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing: more appealing that storing gold vs fiat, since gold has a less predictable monetary policy. Gold had been chosen as currency for most of history, across cultures and languages. In countries where the currency breaks down, things like chocolate, potatoes or corn get into c…

I'm sorry but your analogy is stretched at best. Unlike gold, potatoes rot...

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#220

Post by alienplutonic »

bobthepanda wrote: post #112
deevolution wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its a generational thing, but i have no clue how i would go about buying/trading gold and i dont think anyone in my friend group does either. Bitcoin is far more accessible.

You can literally go to a gold dealer shop; it's like forex for gold. Even in my moderately sized American city there are twenty that show up in Google Maps within a twenty minute drive. And you buy gold and it's physically in your possession; verifying it is easy, and the best part is you can verify it at some other gold dealer if you're super paranoid. With BTC, you have to find a trusted exchange and a trusted wal…

There are currency exchangers in every major city who trade BTC for paper cash, same as gold dealers.
Post reply on HN