Sorry this is the baby boomers' fault. They got educated for free when state budgets were flush and times were good. Since then, all they do is vote in wildly ineffective hard right people and vote down any kind of bond or tax. This leaves colleges with no state support, so the burden is passed to students. Hoping the next generation does better in their political choices.
The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
321–330 of 374 posts
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…
I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…
>Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile.
Why are they necessary? How is claiming they are necessary not inherently impugning the concept of self-rule, how is it not inherently illiberal and arbitrary? What kind of base ideology are you subscribing to? Why shouldn't there be a career politician? What are examples of "actual skills" that you think should apply for proper legislating or executing or judging laws?
As someone who did study political science and law, I find term limits in law to be an abomination. A cheat. A long term destroyer of trust and institutional knowledge. You want actual skills, but you refuse to grant a person with such actual skills the position of a professional, with a career. It's an illogical position.
I doubt there is some Dunning-Kruger effect really going on with STEM folks and politics, although the blinders on approach I consistently see makes it superficially appear like that might be possible. Instead I think it's discomfort with the fact there are multiple ideologies, and you must choose, and it is that which will guide your future decision making on policy. Without the choise, you're vaporware. And without adversarialism, you're milquetoast. In both politics and law, the adversarial system is mandatory. I get way more suspicious when two ideological factions agree with each other from the outset on something than when they're adversarial and compelled to compromise. There is no compromise and there is no innovation without adversarialism.
I miss Feynman though. There was a guy with a very good balance between comfort not knowing, and discomfort not knowing. Lack of hubris, and yet no lack of ambition to learn.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. Loans should be harder to get. This will reduce school costs, reduce applicant numbers, and force students to really think if college is necessary. Community colleges will take more of a lead, tuition will plummet, kids will enter the work force without a “unforgivable” loan.
> This will reduce school costs, reduce applicant numbers, and force students to really think if college is necessary. In a society where academic qualification is more and more required, making loans harder to get will only drive the poorest people to even more desperate actions to ensure their kids get a chance in life. Don't get me wrong, the debt situation should be resolved (e.g. by making ALL education free, li…
> In a society where academic qualification is more and more required
Which is only the case because we handed out so many diplomas that it became a stigma not to have one... Which happened because we handed out student loans too easily. It's causing the problem more than it's solving it.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep. Multiple choice is a crap way to measure most understanding. This doesn't take away your other point: unsupportive environments. Socio-economically disadvantaged kids are truly disadvantaged.
> Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep. Not true, the test could be arranged in other ways depending on the goals. I've taken one standardized suite of test, after 12 years of schooling, and the questions were quite deep enough. The limited number of ques…
As a former math teacher in a disadvantaged area, I'm going to have to stick to my original statement. It could be different in other regions of the world, but, in the US, because funding is based on test scores, and teachers are required to teach the test concepts, whether students are ready for them or not. Students have to cover so much material in a given time period. For many, the time to truly "get" the material is not there. They can memorize something, test on it, move on. The fact that some students are capable of getting through this and learn or retain information does not mean it is a good method of doing things.
As a practical example why multiple choice can be unfair: a student could understand that solving for the roots of a parabolic curve (quadratic equation) could model the landing point of a ballistic projectile. They could understand the difference of squares method to solving quadratics, factoring, solving linear equations, etc. But a simple arithmetic mess up (they add instead of subtracting on one step even though they wrote a subtraction sign) leads to the wrong answer. Because it is a multiple choice test and because test makers have seen this same error before, the wrong answer the student found is one of the multiple choice solutions. Boom. Zero credit on that question. This failed to measure the student's understanding. How do you get around that? More questions with more nuances.
Can you get signal on student understanding from multiple choice tests? Sure. Is it good? Depends on the test and it is hard to write good tests.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep. Not true, the test could be arranged in other ways depending on the goals. I've taken one standardized suite of test, after 12 years of schooling, and the questions were quite deep enough. The limited number of ques…
As a former math teacher in a disadvantaged area, I'm going to have to stick to my original statement. It could be different in other regions of the world, but, in the US, because funding is based on test scores, and teachers are required to teach the test concepts, whether students are ready for them or not. Students have to cover so much material in a given time period. For many, the time to truly "get" the materia…
I do think it is worth drawing a distinction between college and K-12 though. In college students are there by their own choice, and colleges choose who they admit, and if students are paid when they succeed on tests they have a strong and immediate incentive that doesn't exist for them in K-12.
There is no necessary reason that tests have to be on a strict time schedule. Imagine instead that testing is offered continuously throughout the year, and a small fee is collected from both the school and the student for taking the test, which is refunded along with the payout if the student succeeds. Then there would be a reason to avoid taking testing before the student has a good handle on the material.
I think that testing serves different functions depending on the context, the binary signal of whether someone has a degree or not from some random university doesn't really measure deep understanding either. It makes sense for a teacher to measure the fined-grained understanding of their students it order to figure out what they most need help with, but maybe it is less important for determining when their level of skill and knowledge is above the threshold where they should be given a degree or credential.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep. Not true, the test could be arranged in other ways depending on the goals. I've taken one standardized suite of test, after 12 years of schooling, and the questions were quite deep enough. The limited number of ques…
As a former math teacher in a disadvantaged area, I'm going to have to stick to my original statement. It could be different in other regions of the world, but, in the US, because funding is based on test scores, and teachers are required to teach the test concepts, whether students are ready for them or not. Students have to cover so much material in a given time period. For many, the time to truly "get" the materia…
I tried to suggest that different goals could mean a different test setup. Instead of a multiple choice test after each course you could have a proper test after a longer period, where grading would consider in the full solution / essay.
I understand that it may be incompatible with the current US practice, but I don't see why each test should be standardized. Locally arranged course exams with a common state/nationwide final exam with proper grading resources should be enough as far as I see.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
So they have an actual class dedicated to teaching you about this, and that class fails to enumerate all of your options? That seems like a sub-optimal situation. Sounds like my sex-ed class in Georgia which never even discussed birth control.
> So they have an actual class dedicated to teaching you about this, and that class fails to enumerate all of your options? Two thoughts: (1) such courses are often opt-in and don't necessarily have tons of free time for off-topic discussions; and (2) many schools with such courses do in fact have robust CC-tracked options that all-honors students are not exposed to. 1. A class like this was offered by my high school…
OP here: You're on the right track in that I go to boarding school. Definitely not super-affluent (it's Louisiana after all!), but not an average high school either. We've got very good teachers and a wide selection of advanced classes, so it makes more sense that college is pushed hard here.
But regarding the first point, the program is mandatory. As for the second, I haven't heard of any other options and I doubt they exist, but as you point out it may just be the circles I interact in. And of course attending boarding school is a choice, though I can't speak for what the situation is at the other schools.
> I distinctly remember more than one person dropping AP Calc so they could focus on the college prep course...
This comment really made me smile. I wonder how much that was actually motivated by wanting to focus on college and how much was just wanting an excuse to get out of AP Calc. AP Calc sucks.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
>"Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt," There's an interesting parallel with the cost of healthcare. Increases in costs for both seem to outstrip inflation year over year. And there's lots of of people making lots of money in both sectors. And yet nobody in either sector seems to be able to say exactly why the costs are increasing at the untenable rates they are. The only thing Washington ever seems to do…
There’s a lot wrong with pricing of healthcare versus its costs, but that spending on it increases faster than inflation isn’t abnormal. If you ask people what’s most important for them, health ranks very high, often is #1. So, once you’re rich enough to pay for food, clothing, and living, almost all extra money should go to health, rather than, say, dining at three star restaurants, wearing tailor-made clothing, or…
>"There’s a lot wrong with pricing of healthcare versus its costs, but that spending on it increases faster than inflation isn’t abnormal."
Well yes an increase in consumer prices for health care results in an increase in health care spending as a percentage of GDP. But that's not what I referring to. I was referring to the fact that the price for basic services and components far outstrip the rate of inflation inflation. Here's one example - generic drugs. A generic drug, barring a supply chain disruption should at most keep with pace with inflation. Using an ancient antibiotic such as doxycycline:
"The price that hospitals and pharmacies pay for a bottle of 500 tablets of doxycycline, a decades-old antibiotic, rose to $1,849 in April, from $20 in October 2013"[1].
There are many other such example regarding run of the mill generic drugs.
Here's another example - a visit to see a primary care physician for either a either a yearly checkup or for because one has caught the flu. During an office visit a patience sees a doctor for maybe 5 to 10 minutes and nurse practitioner for maybe another 10 minutes. Maybe the doctor writes a prescription, updates the patients charts or might additionally refer them to a specialist. None of these activities involves cutting edge technology and the routines of such visits haven't fundamentally changed in years. Yet the price of these office visits has risen 14% in recent year.[2]
Lastly the premiums for the same basic health plane HMO, PPO etc have also continued far outstripped despite the fact that copays and deductibles - the out of pocket portion for consumers have risen not decreased. So it's not even though Americans are paying more for increased coverage or paying more for increased quality they are paying more for less.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/08/business/officials-questi...
[2] http://www.healthcostinstitute.org/report/2016-health-care-c...
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.
That doesn’t “solve the problem.” 92% of student debt is owed to the federal government. And the federal government originates almost all new student debt. The poor returns thus will accrue to the taxpayer. But unlike other investors, however, the government won’t stop making these “poor investments.” Big College has convinced everyone that access to student loans without consideration for credit risk is the solution…
Big College has also convinced everyone that access to education with out consideration of the marketability of that education is the solution to ever ill.
Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…
I once believed as you do. Attend some public hearings. Watch how the experienced lobbyists and administrators run circles around legislators. I now advocate for professional legislators (full time gig) with sufficient staff to tackle the size and complexity of modern governance.
>>sufficient staff to tackle the size and complexity of modern governance.
How about instead of "professional legislators " you advocate the reduction of government both in size and complexity. that seems to be a better option IMO