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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#101

Post by sgeisler »

adiusmus wrote: post #67
beaner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a pretty long way off, I'm sorry. Bitcoin is more popular than ever. The payments network (Lightning) being built on top of the financial sovereignty base layer is just getting started.

Another fork of bitcoin. So not actually bitcoin but still bitcoin at the same time. This appears to be an issue with cryptos. Nothing stops another fork later. It’s like people find a problem with a currency and start printing money in another one. I can see blockchain currency being useful when it is backed by something solid. But right now it’s still just wasted electricity. Eg MasterCard and friends could easily…

> Another fork of bitcoin.

That's factually wrong. Lightning is a protocol on top of Bitcoin (like HTTP is built on TCP) and not a fork.

It has a different set of trade offs: transactions on it are instant, but one should only store small amounts on it (like what you would carry in your purse) since your money on it can be stolen if you are offline for too long (and you did not pay someone to monitor the network for you). But as long as you are online often enough your funds are secure.

If someone is curious how it works: https://lightning.network/

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#102

Post by yborg »

jonny_eh wrote: post #2

When can we call Bitcoin a failed experiment? And don't tell me it was "always about storing value", that's not in the original paper.

Failed in what sense, and for whom? Some people made and are making a lot of (real) money from it (especially the thieves that have executed the numerous heists from exchanges, wallets, etc.) There is a definite ecosystem here that has players profiting from it that would want it to continue.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#103

Post by rrdharan »

deevolution wrote: post #90
bobthepanda wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what advantage does it have over gold? Advantages of gold vs. Bitcoin: - gold is pretty easy to find, not that hard to buy for the average consumer; BTC is anything but - gold is physical in form and securing it is not hard; BTC is not physical, exchanges get hacked with losses to accounts, in the event of a natural disaster or some event where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC. (So…

Maybe its a generational thing, but i have no clue how i would go about buying/trading gold and i dont think anyone in my friend group does either. Bitcoin is far more accessible.

It’s pretty easy to just buy $GLD with any brokerage account if you just want gold exposure. If you don’t trust the ETFs to honor your claims when the apocalypse arrives things are harder of course.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#104

Post by comboy »

bobthepanda wrote: post #85
socrates1998 wrote: post #70

It sounds weird, but I think a big part of Bitcoin's, and other crypto's value, isn't in the day to day ability to use it to buy and sell things, it's the inability of the government to devalue it. This isn't as big a problem in many richer countries with relatively stable currencies, but I sure as hell would prefer Bitcoin to anything the Venezuelan government or the Argentinian government would issue. The kinks are…

I mean, what advantage does it have over gold? Advantages of gold vs. Bitcoin: - gold is pretty easy to find, not that hard to buy for the average consumer; BTC is anything but - gold is physical in form and securing it is not hard; BTC is not physical, exchanges get hacked with losses to accounts, in the event of a natural disaster or some event where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC. (So…

In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away).

Plus buying stuff online is more tricky.

I could envision alternative reality though, where there are companies specializing in providing tokens that have 100% coverage in gold. You would need to trust them and their software, but some trust is always involved. The problem is those would be an easy target with physical holdings (so the problem of the gov comes back, but they could choose under which gov to operate). In that scenario, if the problem gets big enough the gov will take care of it, no matter where on the planet is that gold. In the case of Bitcoin though, while temporarily it can be hampered very easily, it's quite impossible to make it completely go away.

The biggest point for gold IMO which you didn't mention, since all value comes from people and their beliefs, is thousands of years vs 10 years.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#105

Post by gammateam »

amelius wrote: post #62
ttul wrote: post #55

When I was starting a BTC ASIC company (don’t worry - it failed to attract investment) in 2011, one of the things that always spooked investors was the slide showing transaction volume. Even in those early days, one had to really stretch one’s imagination to believe that Bitcoin could one day take over from Visa/MasterCard as a payment method of choice. But we did understand its value as an alternative store of wealt…

What does it take to actually make BTC ASICs? In my understanding, the hash functions are quite simple and just do things like XOR, and SHIFT, and perhaps ADD/SUB, but not multiply or divide. So the main difficulty would be to do everything at the lowest possible amount of power. But I could be wrong.

yes, we stopped making application specific integrated circuits (ASIC) back in 1980 in favor of general purpose processors that do all applications decently fast.

there is no rocket science to making an ASIC because we already know how to, and its economically viable again to dust off that knowledge

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#106

Post by sorokod »

socrates1998 wrote: post #70

It sounds weird, but I think a big part of Bitcoin's, and other crypto's value, isn't in the day to day ability to use it to buy and sell things, it's the inability of the government to devalue it. This isn't as big a problem in many richer countries with relatively stable currencies, but I sure as hell would prefer Bitcoin to anything the Venezuelan government or the Argentinian government would issue. The kinks are…

It is weird, if you can't buy and sell with bitcoin daily(whatever that means) what value does it have for you?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#107

Post by Sangermaine »

ttoinou wrote: post #28
chrismorgan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of your points is of dubious validity: fees may not be higher. Fees went very high when the network became congested; but when it’s not congested, they’re much lower than credit card systems are for normal businesses. https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/ suggests that right now, what equates to about nine US cents is sufficient for a basic transaction. And if you’re happy to wait an hour, then two cents ought to do you…

Yes. But don't forget credit cards offer others services, such as charge refund and fraud protection

I've seen the more ideologically zealous bitcoin enthusiasts declare that "freeing" consumers from those are a selling point. It's difficult to have meaningful discussions with people like that, it's almost like talking with the devoutly religious.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#108

Post by replies_to_all »

guiomie wrote: post #87
bobthepanda wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what advantage does it have over gold? Advantages of gold vs. Bitcoin: - gold is pretty easy to find, not that hard to buy for the average consumer; BTC is anything but - gold is physical in form and securing it is not hard; BTC is not physical, exchanges get hacked with losses to accounts, in the event of a natural disaster or some event where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC. (So…

Can't figure out if this is sarcasm...

Gold

- Can be transferred instantly for pennies anywhere in the world with an internet connection.

- Not controlled by an inflated "paper" gold market.

- Can not be controlled by a government....

Yes, I hope it was sarcasm.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#109

Post by Sangermaine »

salawat wrote: post #86
telaport wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's becoming clear that people who say what you just said sound more like the loons parroting Sovereign Citizen manifestos than rational individuals who actually understand international monetary policies. Instead of screaming about flags with yellow fringes, and "Am I being detained?", you will be screaming about how POW works and "Is BTC illegal?!". Whether you want to believe it or not, enough people are not havi…

His point is the fundamental principles of fractional reserve are flawed, and the system will alwayssuffer from the looming threat of a bank run. It's rather disingenuous to say that people having money stolen from them isn't a problem when you have a system that cyclically chucks out an Enron or Sub-Prime mortgage crisis every ten years or so that typically ends up getting resolved on the taxpayer's dime. The defini…

>His point is the fundamental principles of fractional reserve are flawed, and the system will alwayssuffer from the looming threat of a bank run.

What? Are you posting from the 1930s? In the US at least this is not an issue for the average person because of the FDIC. There is no "looming threat of a bank run" anywhere in the developed world, precisely because governments and regulations prevent it.

This is exactly the kind of lunacy the parent was talking about. It's near-religious ideological ranting.

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