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The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

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21–30 of 93 posts

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#21
post #16

Dentists can be complete crooks though. All my life I went to two dentists. Both were pretty good, and I had cavities pretty rarely. Later, my parents had to switch insurance, so we went to another dentist with a much nicer office. He takes a quick look at my teeth and says, "Oh yeah, looks like about eight cavities. We should drill them etc etc" My parents are shocked and take me back to our most used old dentist fo…

When I worked in the US, I had $1500/year in dental insurance and a new dentist. The x-ray turned up exactly $1500-(2x cost of regular checkups) in cavities. (All of which turned out to be JPEG artifacts & shadows)

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a car is a really unpleasant, multi-hour experience, but it's funny how often people go back to the same dealer.

I never bought a car. How do you make it take multiple hours and really unpleasant? I image, if I was to buy a car, I would look up interesting models on the internet (including price information), perhaps ask my friends for advice. When I am ready knowing what car I want, I'd go to the dealership, see if their price is right, and buy it (or leave it). I might phone around before hand, to find out their prices and co…

Even if you show up with a bag full of cash, point right at the car you want, and agree to the sticker price, there is a shocking amount of paper work that needs to be completed. The guy on the lot, the guy sitting at the desk to watch you fill in the paper work, and the guy who knows how to make copies of the paper work are all different. At every step you will be asked a question you had no idea would need deciding.

As soon as financing or insurance come into the game, it gets really ridiculous.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#23
post #11
post #7

This stockholm syndrome is annoyingly hard to avoid. I've known about it, but I can recall many similar occasions after reading this article.

Examples?

Generally harsh criticism from people with some power over me. No matter how boring the subject matter, this makes me more likely to work at it & to seek their approval.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a car is a really unpleasant, multi-hour experience, but it's funny how often people go back to the same dealer.

I never bought a car. How do you make it take multiple hours and really unpleasant? I image, if I was to buy a car, I would look up interesting models on the internet (including price information), perhaps ask my friends for advice. When I am ready knowing what car I want, I'd go to the dealership, see if their price is right, and buy it (or leave it). I might phone around before hand, to find out their prices and co…

Here's a brilliant article from several years ago that crops up on HN from time to time -- an undercover report on car dealerships. It's long, but it's recommended reading if you are planning to buy a car, or if you have any interest in sales psychology:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article....

According to this article, there are two kinds of dealerships -- high-pressure and low-pressure -- and the reporter spends some time working at each. The high-pressure Japanese dealership had an elaborate buying process with many additional costs, delays, and psychological tricks to greatly inflate the final price. "Let me talk with my manager" is used as a weapon.

But online research is a good idea. Some lines from the article:

"Three hundred below invoice," he smugly answered.

I asked how he did it. He said he checked prices on the Internet. He then called the fleet manager and made the deal over the phone.

I had a schizophrenic reaction to this. Part of me admired the fact that he had outfoxed the dealer. But the car salesman side of me was angry that I never "got a shot at him." It seemed like just a matter of time before people who, in the past, walked onto our car lot, would be on the Internet making deals.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#25
My dentists keep changing because they keep leaving the practice I go to. That might be a sign to look elsewhere. Although my first dentist told me that at some time I would need a crown put on a tooth, and as soon as he left and the new dentist looked at my tooth, he said we should get this done now even though nothing had changed. One could have been complacent, while the other was proactive - who knows. There probably should be more of a standard than a gut feeling when it comes to medical procedures.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#26
I think this is more "the rational way dentists interact with insurance companies". Insurance companies pay well under the usual market rate for treatment, so it makes sense for a dentist that accepts insurance to find a lot of problems that can be fixed in a short amount of time. "Yeah, that's probably a cavity" for 3 teeth on the same side of the mouth requires about as much time-in-chair as 1 cavity, but he gets to bill 3x. And since the insurance company is paying for it, there is no risk of not being paid. (It's bad for the patient, of course, because the fillings have to be redone in 10 years. But that ticking time bomb keeps the insurance payments coming in, and so it's good for everyone. Except the patient.)

My dentist doesn't take insurance and so he probably doesn't do this.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#27

I have no problem shopping around dentists, and have even checked my new dentist's professional opinion with my old dentist who I trust completely (I moved overseas). I studied how dentists work with their computers for my PhD using participatory design so learnt the basics of dentist practice, and from my studies at a dental school, got to learn what good and bad dentistry are, so I'm definitely not the norm. It is…

Where do you live and who is your dentist!

I live in the Bay Area. If you email me I can let you know my current dentist.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#28
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples?

Buying a car is a really unpleasant, multi-hour experience, but it's funny how often people go back to the same dealer.

Does anyone actually go to dealerships anymore to 'look' for cars? With websites like Autotrader, you basically have all of your choices listed for you. The last car I bought, I found online, went to the dealership, and it wasn't that bad of a situation. Just like any other major purchase you should do your homework before confronting anyone in sales.

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#29
I've tried 6 dentists recently, 2 were local; 2 were referred by people I knew; 2 were referred by health-care professionals who were trustworthy and gave me truly excellent results in their own field. I'm in Melbourne, Australia, and I have no reason to believe that our dentists are particularly bad.

All 6 were either dishonest or incompetent. Including: preventing my front teeth from meeting; modifying opposing teeth for a fit; key equipment not working; charging me for work not done (I was informed that they'd checked the invoice too); going back on an agreement (to give me the xrays); going ahead with work without asking me (I found it impossible to get out of the chair to stop him); and of course being overcharged (my accountant remarked on it.)

However, all 6 were excellent at minimizing pain, and that seems to be what most people notice. I'm more concerned about getting my teeth fixed.

The 2 previous to these 6 were not very good. I would have thought 6 more would be enough to find a good one. I have given up on the dental profession as institutionally corrupt. I do not believe there is even any facility to complain about them, as that would also be run by dentists.

Because it's difficult for a layman to check a professional's work, especially when that work is also difficult to inspect, I used secondary signals in the above. However, I also bought a small mirror, and a direct inspection also revealed a misplaced shallow drill hole (with no filling). I remember years ago one of the previous dentists had slipped, but I didn't think it had actually resulted in any drilling. None of the dentists mentioned this very obvious rogue drill hole.

I think most people are happy to get out of there, and if any pain stops. I just wish I could DIY my own dental work.

Can anyone suggest how I can find a competent dentist?

Re: The 'Irrational' Way Humans Interact With Dentists

#30

I have no problem shopping around dentists, and have even checked my new dentist's professional opinion with my old dentist who I trust completely (I moved overseas). I studied how dentists work with their computers for my PhD using participatory design so learnt the basics of dentist practice, and from my studies at a dental school, got to learn what good and bad dentistry are, so I'm definitely not the norm. It is…

Do you have any pointers on what to avoid?

The main areas I evaluate are:

- technique (one of the most important, but generally difficult to interpret without some tuition. However some good indicators are time spent in mouth during procedures, how prepared is the dentist (hunting for tools is worrisome), level of pain, number of times work has had to be fixed)

- hygiene (appropriate glove changing, mask, tool use and sterilization). The most obvious things I notice are whether tools are coming out of sterilization bags and being placed on a sanitized surface. Does the dentist return a tool that's been in your mouth back to the sanitized surface?

- equipment (age of equipment, tech levels (not too high - don't forget, you the patient are paying for it). This is also important as digital x-rays use much less radiation and allow for immediate review with the patient.

- patient manner (attentiveness to pain and mouth discomfort, willingness to answer questions and properly explain procedures, or even minor things like accommodating patient embarrassment of tooth condition)

- upsell (does the dentist try to have you buy an occlusal splint without demonstrating actual tooth wear, sell you on cosmetic surgery, or attempt immediate intervention constantly rather than a wait and see approach)

- preventative methods (often, but not too often periodontal examinations, fluoride treatments, x-rays, etc)

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