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The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

nytimes.com

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Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#301

Post by greedo »

rbankston wrote: post #206
lend000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder how many problems would be fixed by adding a 2 term limit to the House and Senate.

Might want to look at how that has worked at the state level. The state of Michigan has this and it has only exacerbated issues held in check because people had incentives to help people and get re-elected. Michigan now squarely gets its policies from lobbyists and special interest groups because at the end of their terms that is who will hire them. Term limits do exist and are called elections. Every single election…

Incumbents have such a huge advantage, that in most elections, the chance of them winning is +90%.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#302

Post by brazzledazzle »

vilmosi wrote: post #277
ransom1538 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is a poor investment option. So less investments are made, so less students attend, tuition plummets, community colleges spring back to life, people focus on degrees that offer pay, kids exit with no unforgivable debt, on and on. That is bad?

It's not bad. But it doesn't matter how much tuition costs or what degrees offer pay or not. Everyone will study whatever they want, borrow at 1000% interest if necessary or 1% interest for "profitable" degrees, and then dump the dept as soon as they graduate. Or am I missing something? Original question, what's stopping everyone from defaulting right after graduation?

The entire premise is based on a questionable foundational assumption. The argument goes that you pay for an education but that can’t be taken back in bankruptcy proceedings or recovered when defaulted on. I’ll agree that what people pay for is an education, but what makes that education valuable in terms of employment is the paper that proves you have it. If the college won’t validate your attendance and degree what do you have except an unverifiable claim that makes you indistinguishable from candidates that don’t have a degree?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#303

Post by anoncoward111 »

vilmosi wrote: post #251
ransom1538 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> Just let students default. It's not that easy. What's to stop everyone from defaulting?

Additionally can I get a refund for the $30,000 I paid in student loans? That was like 2 or 3 years worth of savings for me at the time.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#304

Post by SerLava »

jldugger wrote: post #36
dev_dull wrote: post #19

There really needs to be some “free market” ideology injected into the way loans are dispersed. First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. Second, we must take into consideration future earnings potential when deciding how much and at what rate.

> First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. While I'm not for or against such a policy, I find it intriguing you think bankruptcy is free market ideology adjacent.

Free doesn't mean devoid of law.

The law can chain you up, or the East India Company can chain you up, and it doesn't make much of a difference.

Free markets are kept free by intelligent and benevolent legal force.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#305

Post by brazzledazzle »

usaar333 wrote: post #258
ransom1538 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> The problem would be solved in a week. Solved in what way though? The end solution state might be one where loans are less available, further entrenching generational income inequality.

We’re so obsessed with stopping cheaters or lazy good-for-nothing’s that we’ll privatize at all costs. That’s including, oddly enough, publicly distributing the risk those private institutions take on. Why not just cut out the middle man and have the government pay for the higher education of the low and middle class directly?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#306

Post by mschuster91 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #260
usaar333 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem would be solved in a week. Solved in what way though? The end solution state might be one where loans are less available, further entrenching generational income inequality.

Yes. Loans should be harder to get. This will reduce school costs, reduce applicant numbers, and force students to really think if college is necessary. Community colleges will take more of a lead, tuition will plummet, kids will enter the work force without a “unforgivable” loan.

> This will reduce school costs, reduce applicant numbers, and force students to really think if college is necessary.

In a society where academic qualification is more and more required, making loans harder to get will only drive the poorest people to even more desperate actions to ensure their kids get a chance in life.

Don't get me wrong, the debt situation should be resolved (e.g. by making ALL education free, like in Europe), but the core problem of society that "undereducated" people are left to compete for menial tasks must also be fixed.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#307

Post by mschuster91 »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #247

I've wondered if an good way to fund universities would be offer them x% of a students tax return for X years after graduation. That way universities would likely focus their courses on areas that get people employed, while cross subsidising some areas they feel add value to the educational environment. Or require popular courses that dont deliver returns as for some upfront payment. Even use data if it's that granul…

> That way universities would likely focus their courses on areas that get people employed, while cross subsidising some areas they feel add value to the educational environment.

As if that would happen! The "unproductive" courses (aka everything but STEM) will all be eliminated as there isn't money for them. Society will lose as a result. Fund everything by taxpayers instead like Europe does.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#308

Post by forapurpose »

CamTin wrote: post #282
forapurpose wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgement that it is less important in some fields than others. I'm certainly not advising you what to do - I don't know you at all and you didn't ask - but speaking generally about the issue: I think the unstated premise that college is vocational training for careers is very misguided. College is the acquisitio…

Sure, we all want to be well-educated and conversant in all the sciences, arts, and humanities. Even more than that, we want to be able to feed ourselves and start a family. From an individual perspective, it makes sense to take care of the latter first. IOW, get a degree that'll put some coin in your pocket, and if you really want to get yourself into the patches-on-your-suitcoat-elbows set, you can do so after you'…

Education will greatly benefit all that you want to do in life, from family to community to finance to career to citizenship to everything else. It teaches you critical thinking, which applies to all of it, and real knowledge of the world, and give you opportunity to excel, live your dreams, and build a better world (for your children too). You have so much more opportunity than you believe; it's sad to see so many throw it away for ideological dogma.

> start a family [first]

This is not a realistic view of families. People with families have no time for anything else; to generalize, they live for their children - a fulfilling thing that I'm not criticizing, but they don't have a lot of time. Also, who will teach your children about the world if you don't know about it yourself? Who will shape the community and country they grow up in, if not you?

> the patches-on-your-suitcoat-elbows set ... Only the megarich can afford ...

This creates a class-based system, an aristocracy where others are serfs who work for the 'megarich' who have the tools to run things. In fact, in the land of opportunity, everyone can do it. College is generally too expensive in the U.S., but not in all countries, and even in the U.S. there are ways to afford it (including by changing government).

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#309

Post by forapurpose »

alistairSH wrote: post #298
CamTin wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we all want to be well-educated and conversant in all the sciences, arts, and humanities. Even more than that, we want to be able to feed ourselves and start a family. From an individual perspective, it makes sense to take care of the latter first. IOW, get a degree that'll put some coin in your pocket, and if you really want to get yourself into the patches-on-your-suitcoat-elbows set, you can do so after you'…

Or, collectively, we figure out how to ensure college doesn’t cost hundreds of thousands in tuition for a BA. When I attended UVA, back in the late 90s, my family was able to pay with no loans. Same for my sister a few years later. Looking at current tuition, that might not be true today. That’s with an engineer father and mom was a teacher (ie, we were comfortably upper-middle class, far from rich, but def. never ha…

I 100% agree.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#310

Post by supercanuck »

ransom1538 wrote: post #245
acjohnson55 wrote: post #18

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

and Puerto Rico. A lot this nonsense would be solved if moral hazard was eliminated.
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