The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined • Hacker News Board

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#281

Post by leoedin » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #277

ransom1538 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is a poor investment option. So less investments are made, so less students attend, tuition plummets, community colleges spring back to life, people focus on degrees that offer pay, kids exit with no unforgivable debt, on and on. That is bad?

It's not bad. But it doesn't matter how much tuition costs or what degrees offer pay or not. Everyone will study whatever they want, borrow at 1000% interest if necessary or 1% interest for "profitable" degrees, and then dump the dept as soon as they graduate. Or am I missing something? Original question, what's stopping everyone from defaulting right after graduation?

What's to stop people defaulting on other unsecured loans, like credit cards? Some people do, but most people don't. Why? Because defaulting on a loan means a bad credit score and suddenly modern society becomes hard - no mortgage, no car loan, no more credit cards etc.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#282

Post by CamTin » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #154

theLotusGambit wrote: post #66

Perspective (anecdote) from a high school student: There is a real push for college. It's an unstated assumption that you're going to go, and the topic of debt seems to be passively avoided ("Don't worry, it'll all work out!"). We receive a grade for the college application process, so you can't not apply. College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgemen…

> College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgement that it is less important in some fields than others. I'm certainly not advising you what to do - I don't know you at all and you didn't ask - but speaking generally about the issue: I think the unstated premise that college is vocational training for careers is very misguided. College is the acquisitio…

Sure, we all want to be well-educated and conversant in all the sciences, arts, and humanities. Even more than that, we want to be able to feed ourselves and start a family. From an individual perspective, it makes sense to take care of the latter first. IOW, get a degree that'll put some coin in your pocket, and if you really want to get yourself into the patches-on-your-suitcoat-elbows set, you can do so after you've set yourself up to take care of your responsibilities.

Only the megarich can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (representing decades in median salary) and four years to do these things before they've even worked out how they can support themselves. If you want that experience for your children, you first need to work out how to be megarich by the time they reach 18.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#283

Post by icebraining » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

Improvotter wrote: post #27

Kephael wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very difficult to start your career at leading companies such as Google, Facebook, etc without going to a reputable school.

This so much. The only reason I'm going for a Master's degree is so I have an easier time getting my foot in a great company. And where I live we don't have any student debt (no, none at all). Life as a student is pretty bliss so why wouldn't I study? It's the best time of your life and you also get a degree out of it without getting in debt. Sign me... oh wait I'm already signed up.

How do you pay rent and food?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#284

Post by specialist » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #251

ransom1538 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> Just let students default. It's not that easy. What's to stop everyone from defaulting?

Their individual credit ratings.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#285

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #277

ransom1538 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is a poor investment option. So less investments are made, so less students attend, tuition plummets, community colleges spring back to life, people focus on degrees that offer pay, kids exit with no unforgivable debt, on and on. That is bad?

It's not bad. But it doesn't matter how much tuition costs or what degrees offer pay or not. Everyone will study whatever they want, borrow at 1000% interest if necessary or 1% interest for "profitable" degrees, and then dump the dept as soon as they graduate. Or am I missing something? Original question, what's stopping everyone from defaulting right after graduation?

[deleted]

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#286

Post by specialist » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

batteryhorse wrote: post #95

Delmania wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…

I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…

I once believed as you do.

Attend some public hearings. Watch how the experienced lobbyists and administrators run circles around legislators.

I now advocate for professional legislators (full time gig) with sufficient staff to tackle the size and complexity of modern governance.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#287

Post by specialist » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #33

acjohnson55 wrote: post #18

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

I often wonder how many problems would be fixed by adding a 2 term limit to the House and Senate.

Every rule change has winners and losers.

If you kneecap politicians, which are somewhat more accountable to us voters, you empower administrators and lobbyists.

If you want more accountability, empower politicians, so they aren't so beholden to monied interests. Public financing of campaigns, for starters. Increase their staffing, so they can manage the work load. Etc.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#288

Post by distances » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #263

lotsofpulp wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does standardized testing contribute to the inadequacy of education? If anything, it shows which students need help, as opposed to grade inflation and throwing out A grades to everyone that hands in a homework assignment on time. Local parents can influence grades, but they can’t get past standardized testing (which is why colleges use SAT/ACT/AP grades to filter rather than GPA). Perhaps funding as a result of s…

Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep. Multiple choice is a crap way to measure most understanding. This doesn't take away your other point: unsupportive environments. Socio-economically disadvantaged kids are truly disadvantaged.

> Standardized testing leads to teaching to the test, and the tests need to be easily gradable, so we teach kids how to take tests that represents content in a mannor that is a mile wide but an inch deep.

Not true, the test could be arranged in other ways depending on the goals. I've taken one standardized suite of test, after 12 years of schooling, and the questions were quite deep enough.

The limited number of questions you can cram into six hours per subject meant that the math test could contain only one task in statistics, one in geometry, and so on; with luck you could do well while lacking in some areas. That would be a gamble though.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#289

Post by lghh » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #277

ransom1538 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is a poor investment option. So less investments are made, so less students attend, tuition plummets, community colleges spring back to life, people focus on degrees that offer pay, kids exit with no unforgivable debt, on and on. That is bad?

It's not bad. But it doesn't matter how much tuition costs or what degrees offer pay or not. Everyone will study whatever they want, borrow at 1000% interest if necessary or 1% interest for "profitable" degrees, and then dump the dept as soon as they graduate. Or am I missing something? Original question, what's stopping everyone from defaulting right after graduation?

Nothing would stop everyone from defaulting. There would just be less student loans to default on in the first place. If defaulting was an option, student loans would either not exists or nearly not exist. If student loans didn't exist, colleges would have to drop their cost or not be able to fill seats. If colleges drop their cost, students don't need loans. The cycle ends.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#290

Post by specialist » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #193

lend000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder how many problems would be fixed by adding a 2 term limit to the House and Senate.

I often wonder how many problems could have been avoided if we required 2/3 majority. Byzantine generals have to work together.

Few of our pathologies can be solved piecemeal.

Consensus would be nice in a less polarized, partisan context.

The primary driver for our partisanship is our winner-takes-all form of elections. Switching to approval voting for executive (one position) races and proportional representation of assemblies (house, councils) would dramatically reduce partisanship. Which would maybe then enable more consensus driven governance.

One can hope.