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Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

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Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#111

Post by eanzenberg »

ahelwer wrote: post #109
jcurbo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most people I know practice some variant of a digital leave-no-trace rule: don't post photos in publicly-trafficked areas of the internet, or if you do then don't say where they were taken. It's not so much gatekeeping as ensuring people who want to experience that beauty have to put in the work - read terribly-designed websites, meet actual people and gain their trust, or even take a backcountry travel class which…

It seems like you're assessing this in a very abstract way, as evidenced by your "what if we took this logic to the extreme" examples. I assure you your perspective changes once you have skin in the game and are invested in an activity which is substantially diminished by the introduction of a large number of uncaring people.

Literally the same argument was made when blacks tried to move into predominately white neighborhoods. “Oh it’s never been the same since, we had to leave to a more exclusive town.”

As long as gates break down new ones will emerge. That surfing spot down thr road is now 5x busy as it was a decade ago? Doesn’t matter, those with means already moved onwards to the better exclusive spot on some remote island.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#112

Post by noelsusman »

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

That quote is pretentious nonsense, and you can claim it's not gatekeeping all you want, but you're describing gatekeeping.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#113

Post by natso100 »

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

I completely agree with your comment about democratizing of our outdoors with mediums like Instagram. They provide a phenomenal view into the beauty of our planet, but open that beauty to a lot of bad actors, or, at least, ignorant actors. Fortunately, there are a few 'grammers who adhere to digital leave no trace and always leave a blurb about the real 'leave no trace' within each post. I would love that to be the norm.

From a personal level, I came to the same logical conclusion as you - push ever deeper into nature via mountaineering, bc skiing, etc.

At the end of the day though am I not just a hypocritical ass? I can explore further into nature due to gps, maps, synthetic materials, lightweight AT ski gear, etc. Are not the 'original' explorers just looking at me like I look at the wave of new 'for the gram' hikers?

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#114

Post by ahelwer »

natso100 wrote: post #113
ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

I completely agree with your comment about democratizing of our outdoors with mediums like Instagram. They provide a phenomenal view into the beauty of our planet, but open that beauty to a lot of bad actors, or, at least, ignorant actors. Fortunately, there are a few 'grammers who adhere to digital leave no trace and always leave a blurb about the real 'leave no trace' within each post. I would love that to be the n…

Of course the original explorers feel that way! Heck, I sport climb, which at one point was nearly grounds for a beating in some circles.

I think people worry too much about hypocrisy. Arguments of the form "you believe X, but if we take X to its logical extreme then you yourself run afoul of X!" lost all weight with me a long time ago. Sure, in the long run all attempts to avoid the crowd fails, and of course you yourself are part of "the crowd" to some people. But human life doesn't take place in the long run, it happens in the time preceding it.

I can enjoy my favorite backcountry spots (which I learned about from someone else, and so on) for some number of years before they are overrun with crowds, but the inevitability of them being run over by crowds does not take away those years.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#115

Post by mattbierner »

I've been playing tourist in Switzerland and northern Italy recently and had a few thoughts related to this article.

- Knowing the tourist stereotype and not wanting to be that makes me self-conscious. I've intentionally avoided some popular attractions because I didn't want to be part of the tourist scene. Worse, I've felt pressure to modify my normal behavior so as not to appear touristy. For example, at home I go into the city with my camera fairly often to photograph the streets and trash cans and shit like that, but I hesitated to do that in Zurich because I didn't want to be that tourist walking around with their camera. That's really stupid.

- The most fun I've had has been taking the wrong bus or a random train and then just going wherever looks the most interesting. The same with restaurants or bars or events: just head out without a destination and pop in wherever looks cool. If you do use Trip Advisor or other popular guides, wander around the destinations and discover what else is nearby. (Atlas Obscura and Google Earth have also taken me some fun places.)

- With your phone, you never really have to leave home or truly get to know a place. I can always reach my friends and family if I am just board; I can always use Translate; I can always look up transit directions. One effect of this is that meeting people—including other tourists—can be very hard because not only are you in your own little phone bubble world, they are also in their own little bubbles (not that this is any difference from home actually). I can't imagine what it would be like to travel while uploading images or commentary for the world.

- Tourists are only doing what systems have optimized for. We tourists go to Florence because the tools and infrastructure make it easy, and because the guides tell us that it is somewhere that we must visit. Then we take selfies to prove we were there because our culture values and rewards experience consumption. I'd like to think that we can build tools and culture that has a broader view of what travel can be and what you get from it. Because not only is travel an essential way to learn about and see the world, it also helps you better understand yourself and the place you come from.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#116

Post by sydd »

siruncledrew wrote: post #53

At a fundamental level, I think the mysticism and admiration of many of these tourist destinations in Europe has greatly eroded in our internet and social media age. It's not like how tourism was 50 years ago when people mostly relied on anecdotal and literary knowledge of places to get a glimpse of what they are like. It's much more of an experience to have to go see something for yourself to really get a substantia…

It really depends on how you do it. I went several times on a holiday where I didn't knew the destination a day before. you just need free time, a car and a smartphone. Oh and avoid tourist trap places, it's just a huge crowd and overpriced stuff anyway.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#117

Post by soundwave106 »

sytelus wrote: post #5

I grew up with stories of people like Maco Polo and love of travel but my recent trips to Europe has almost repulsed and disillusioned me. Tiny European countries are being swamped by huge swath of tourists, everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing, take exact same pictures and even eat at exact same recommended restaurants. There is a lot to see and little to reflect when you are am…

My only personal thought is to use as many resources as you can to plan. A lot of places have Tripadvisor forums as well as other old school forums or other pages on the Internet where you can get deeper options than many guidebooks can provide, as well as other opinions of many other people. The biggest issue with Rick Steve is that a single opinionated guide is misinterpreted as a bible. I don't think one single guidebook suffices that well these days.

I have not traveled in Europe for a while, but in most places I have found it fairly easy to escape the crowds. Most of the crowds focus on the top spots; usually it seems like the crowds fade considerably even by walking a short distance a way.

It helps some to have some activity in mind other than "see stuff take pictures", something that fits your interest. Sure, some of these activities can also be crowded, but there is a better chance of much of the crowd being locals.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#118

Post by notacoward »

ggm wrote: post #41

"hell is other people" I think most anti tourism pieces are elitist. I also find crowds and queues a drag but either it's a lottery or it's priced out to most people. Which is better?

> either it's a lottery or it's priced out to most people

Exactly. I guess there's a third option, which is that it's simply closed, but that would only be OK if the residents unanimously want it that way and I doubt that's ever the case. The sentiment behind all articles like this is that the authors think access to $whatever should be more exclusive. I wonder how many would advocate for that if they knew they would be among the excluded. Darn few, I suspect.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#119

Post by Agustus »

futureshock wrote: post #70
sytelus wrote: post #5

I grew up with stories of people like Maco Polo and love of travel but my recent trips to Europe has almost repulsed and disillusioned me. Tiny European countries are being swamped by huge swath of tourists, everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing, take exact same pictures and even eat at exact same recommended restaurants. There is a lot to see and little to reflect when you are am…

The world is a staggeringly huge place. It's filled with complexity from top to bottom. There are more wonders than could fill a library of travel books. But it's the travel books that are the main problem, along with our extremely narrow collective obsession in a few specific experiences. Our need to meet expectations. The crowds of tourists gather in just the thinnest spider web of places. Usually you can escape th…

Or killed. Guidebooks are developed as guides not only for the good, but also the bad.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#120

Post by waterhouse »

eaenki wrote: post #23
blondie9x wrote: post #18

Traveling is overrated. Often times in modern life it feels as thought traveling is a competition rather than for leisure and pleasure. People are often competing to take pictures and say they have been to as many places as possible. Props to travel companies for propagating the travel craze and selling people on the allure of taking pictures and eating food in another spot on Earth. Count the number of people's prof…

I'll play Sherlock. I think that's just a controversial view you created and therefore particularly like. It's likely also one you created to explain some preferences of yours (e.g local attachment). Likely instilled from parents. I think my view on your comment is: true as long as you're a cyborg. Personally, I travel where(and when) no one goes. Unique, remote places. It's scientifically proven that when you experi…

I suspect many of the people in this thread would benefit from reading about the Typical Mind Fallacy:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizi...

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