Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#101

Post by alkonaut » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #93

alkonaut wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally one of the few things that I assign to "meaning" in my life. Seeing the world.

I understand. It is really important to a lot of people. But the world is right there in front of you there is something to be said about appreciating where you are.

I appreciate where I live MORE because I see other things. Because you notice the differences and appreciate what makes it special. I spend 98% of my time there, and it's better because of the 2% of my time I spend elsewhere.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#102

Post by Fomite » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #45

NTDF9 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Traveling is so overrated it's insane. No it is not. It is only overrated for folks who are trying to "gain" something from it. >> Okay let's be honest for a second what does most traveling boil down to? The whole point of traveling is to be in an environment foreign to you. Interacting with locals, eating local food, trying local shit. This was all more fun before globalization since you couldn't fly into Phillip…

The real question you have to ask yourself is why is it foreign to you? You are breathing air, eating food that boils down to the same components, you are experiencing gravity at the same rate, you are seeing one moon, you are seeing one sun, you are interacting with homo sapiens. The differences are mostly psychological perceptions where you are bored and want to feel something different.

"You are breathing air" - True, but it smells like a different place.

"eating food that boils down to the same components" - Only in the most technically reductive sense. There is no locally sourced crocodile where I live.

"eating food that boils down to the same components" - But entirely different stars

"you are interacting with homo sapiens" - With cares and life experiences utterly different to my own.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#103

Post by ggm » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:35 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #72

ggm wrote: post #41

"hell is other people" I think most anti tourism pieces are elitist. I also find crowds and queues a drag but either it's a lottery or it's priced out to most people. Which is better?

I new this band before they were cool man. Now I can't afford tickets because of all the Johnny come latelies who can't truly appreciate their music like I can.

I'm also reminded of US and British tourism in hyperinflation Weimar Germany:. "oooh look you can live like a king for a dollar a month"

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#104

Post by Roritharr » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

jcurbo wrote: post #87

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

"Most people I know practice some variant of a digital leave-no-trace rule: don't post photos in publicly-trafficked areas of the internet, or if you do then don't say where they were taken. It's not so much gatekeeping as ensuring people who want to experience that beauty have to put in the work - read terribly-designed websites, meet actual people and gain their trust, or even take a backcountry travel class which…

I agree, the absurdity of the notion of digital gatekeeping of beauty becomes apparent if we think what the first pictures of our planet from space have done for the ecology movement. People need to experience to connect.

Take that away and living in air conditioned condos and driving big diesel SUVs to the next strip mall for your latte is just how the world is supposed to be.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#105

Post by dougmwne » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

Everything must be matained forever or it will disappear. Areas of economic unproditivity will be capitalized on. If there were no crowds of tourists filling ancient cities, there'd be less incentive to maintain them or not replace them with new construction. If no one used our national parks they'd be sold off to developers or resource extractors.

You can't have it both ways. Either tourism and outdoor recreation are popular and the market will respond by preserving unique places worth seeing. Or there will be no interest in preserving these places and our very large and resource hungry population will put these places to more productive use.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#106

Post by notacoward » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

The problem is that limiting access to those with the greatest means (factoring in leisure time as well as money) is horribly elitist. This is similar to a conversation about teleportation that I've had several times with my wife and more recently my daughter.

"Sure, it would be great if we could teleport to some unspoiled natural place without having to deal with the hassle of regular travel and hiking for hours/days to get there. Maybe we could even maintain a place there, so we could visit whenever we want. But wait, if everybody else did that then it wouldn't be unspoiled any more. So maybe if teleportation cost a lot ... but not so much that we ourselves were excluded, naturally. But we're not elitist scum, are we? Oh well, let's keep walking."

I totally understand the urge, I feel it myself, but my aversion to being or becoming part of a new aristocracy is even stronger. The only fair way to keep places unspoiled would be to issue licenses via a lottery. Non-transferable licenses, or else you might as well just sell directly to the rich. Other than that, this is just an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of giving people freedom (and the means) to travel where they will.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#107

Post by jayalpha » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

moray wrote: post #42

sytelus wrote: post #5

I grew up with stories of people like Maco Polo and love of travel but my recent trips to Europe has almost repulsed and disillusioned me. Tiny European countries are being swamped by huge swath of tourists, everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing, take exact same pictures and even eat at exact same recommended restaurants. There is a lot to see and little to reflect when you are am…

One of my favourite cities in Italy is Venice, I am italian, and I have been there visiting friends several times. Tourism have ruined the city, they are there all year , residents don't have breaks... Anyway... there are nice alternative guides that do what you are asking, and for Venice the one of "Corto Maltese" is a good example. I managed to find this guide some years ago after some research. It is a bit rare, a…

"One of my favourite cities in Italy is Venice, I am italian, and I have been there visiting friends several times. Tourism have ruined the city, they are there all year, residents don't have breaks..."

I understand you. But tourists are the only thing that keeps Venice a little bit afloat. It will sink sooner or later. Venice was once a former banking and trading center. They had some industry. All this is lost. They don't have the money to sustain the infrastructure anymore. Even the money from tourists won't be enough in the long run.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#108

Post by nodnyl » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

torpfactory wrote: post #7

sytelus wrote: post #5

I grew up with stories of people like Maco Polo and love of travel but my recent trips to Europe has almost repulsed and disillusioned me. Tiny European countries are being swamped by huge swath of tourists, everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing, take exact same pictures and even eat at exact same recommended restaurants. There is a lot to see and little to reflect when you are am…

I often wait until I have a personal connection to a place, such as a friend or related hobby, before traveling. The experience becomes very removed from that of a tourist, and so much more rewarding. Am I selfish if I put extra effort into maintaining friendships with foreign friends so I might end up visiting them?

I can relate to this. I have had some more rewarding travel experiences in Europe on short work trips, than I have in similar places as a tourist. I think its a combination of better connections with locals and a reason to be there beyond just looking at things.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#109

Post by ahelwer » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

jcurbo wrote: post #87

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

"Most people I know practice some variant of a digital leave-no-trace rule: don't post photos in publicly-trafficked areas of the internet, or if you do then don't say where they were taken. It's not so much gatekeeping as ensuring people who want to experience that beauty have to put in the work - read terribly-designed websites, meet actual people and gain their trust, or even take a backcountry travel class which…

It seems like you're assessing this in a very abstract way, as evidenced by your "what if we took this logic to the extreme" examples. I assure you your perspective changes once you have skin in the game and are invested in an activity which is substantially diminished by the introduction of a large number of uncaring people.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#110

Post by notacoward » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 11:07 PM UTC

mavdi wrote: post #12

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

> you become economically significant but existentially loathsome Ouch

I think "economically significant but existentially loathsome" also describes elitists/materialists who believe that only rich people should get to enjoy beautiful surroundings even part of the time. So it's an apt phrase, but probably not in the way ahelwer meant.