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Consider applying for grad school

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Re: Consider applying for grad school

#141

Post by fangsout »

nolemurs wrote: post #69

> PhDs are intellectually demanding, and not everyone will be able to finish. In the US between 41 and 78% of people who start PhDs have finished them after ten years, depending on their sub field. Computer and Information Science has the lowest graduation rates (41%) Right... I've met a good number of PhD dropouts - I am one myself. None of them dropped out because it was too "intellectually demanding." They all dro…

I also dropped out of a PhD program in CS after I realized that my advisor had incentives to keep me in the program and no incentives to help me complete my dissertation in a timely fashion. Imagine having a highly-educated, native english speaking computer scientist that you paid $30K / year. Compared to the 150K+ / year that person would make in the private sector.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#142

Post by newen »

TTPrograms wrote: post #109
newen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is a certified genius like Grigori Perelman who can do great research while living in a vacuum. You need great advisors who will guide you, and fellow grad students who you can ask for help and bounce ideas off. The academic enviroment is invaluable for someone doing their PhD, and it's pretty much impossible for someone with somewhat above average intelligence (and let's face it, most PhD's are not geni…

My statement is not that people can't benefit from a PhD, but that it is not a strict requirement. You are presenting a strawman.

What is that strawman exactly? You are saying that anyone can do PhD level research with just a laptop and the internet. I am saying that that is extremely difficult and impossible for the vast majority of people.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#143

Post by newen »

p1esk wrote: post #123
newen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is a certified genius like Grigori Perelman who can do great research while living in a vacuum. You need great advisors who will guide you, and fellow grad students who you can ask for help and bounce ideas off. The academic enviroment is invaluable for someone doing their PhD, and it's pretty much impossible for someone with somewhat above average intelligence (and let's face it, most PhD's are not geni…

Perelman had great advisors and peers at every stage of his education.

Like the main guy in Good Will Hunting then ;)

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#144

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #52
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the whole article, including the "why not to get a PhD part." I still thought it was way too kind to the "get a PhD" side of the equation. PhDs represent a tremendous opportunity cost, and I have not seen good evidence that they causally improve outcomes in the vast majority of cases.

This may shock you, but some people prefer doing research to working a normal job and earning lots of money. Those are the types of people that should and will do PhDs (there are unfortunately a lot who think like you and still try and do a PhD for god knows what reason).

It doesn't shock me, but I think a lot of people don't realize what they're giving up until it's too late, and I think a lot of people are deceiving themselves about exactly what they're getting into.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#145

Post by marcelluspye »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #52
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the whole article, including the "why not to get a PhD part." I still thought it was way too kind to the "get a PhD" side of the equation. PhDs represent a tremendous opportunity cost, and I have not seen good evidence that they causally improve outcomes in the vast majority of cases.

This may shock you, but some people prefer doing research to working a normal job and earning lots of money. Those are the types of people that should and will do PhDs (there are unfortunately a lot who think like you and still try and do a PhD for god knows what reason).

Those are also the types of people who don't need this article to prod them into applying for grad school.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#146

Post by rovr138 »

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #62
dwaltrip wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered if working for 10 or so years and then getting a PhD could be a good strategy.

I've been in the industry for 12 years and I've been deeply considering going back to school for a PhD. I love working on fundamental CS and I'd greatly enjoy the sort of work that I'd have access to during and after a PhD. The challenge is that, for folks who haven't won the equity lottery or racked up FAANG RSUs, it's a huge financial challenge to consider going from an engineering salary to PhD stipend. Considerin…

It’s not the easiest decision. Regarding loans, repayment should stop once you go back. Regarding income, it’s hard at first. You might have to downsize, but also research cost of living. Depending on where you go to, it’s doable. Some universities have housing for people doing their PhDs and for families which is cheaper.

Went (going?) through it. My wife is doing her PhD. From 2 really good incomes to one stipend. We don’t live in campus housing so it’s more expensive (savings helped here initially), but we do know of others there with their spouses and some even with kids that are doing good. I found a job after getting here which helped.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#147

Post by monocasa »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #140
monocasa wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't fizzbuzz, I'm not going to hire you. Not being able to isn't defensible. I'm going to be real, what I'm assuming is a near completed master's student complaining about fizzbuzz not being fair is kind of proving my point.

Fizzbuzz is fair: it’s a fair waste of time. Interviewing an experienced and credentialed developer like they’re an undergrad sophomore with a one sentence resume looking for a summer internship shows to me that if an employer is going to waste the time of a candidate (and implicitly insult their intelligence and education), then they will waste the time of an employee, and such they represent an organization I want…

Except it isn't a waste of time. Most of the credentialed, experienced people looking for a job in this current market can't do it. Most of the people actively looking for work in this field don't have a job for a reason.

Have you ever been a part of the hiring process, or are just stating that it's a waste of time because you think it's somehow beneath you to prove that you can do basic work? You know those annoying people in you group projects who don't do any work, but somehow squeak by? They graduate to, and get a job to.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#148

Post by mmirate »

chrisseaton wrote: post #40
mmirate wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedantically: yes, but almost all of them have salary as a prerequisite. Practically: no, not really.

My PhD and the research I do now based on it give me a huge amount of personal satisfaction and are a big part of my quality of life. I'm comparing the work I did before my PhD (because I worked after my degree before a PhD) and seeing what my friends think about work compared to me. Yeah if you're looking for more money, maybe don't do a PhD. If you're looking for the time and space to find satisfaction by working o…

Time and space are but a few of the many things that money can buy.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#149

Post by ianai »

mmt wrote: post #115
ianai wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that’s the pitch they make in the PhD programs. But what they leave out are the negative associations with a PhD. You will immediately be over qualified for large swaths of work. And unless you can immediately land that dream job by, amongst other things, beating out all competition for that work - you will enter the work force with 0 applicable work experience. Hiring managers can be downright blind about anythin…

> And unless you can immediately land that dream job I'm not sure it has to be immediately , but your point still stands, and it's often ignored by proponents, which is that merely acquiring a graduate degree does not automatically guarantee all those intangible benefits. One has to actually secure employment with those benefits. Whether that's easier than finding employment with salary benefits instead (or in additi…

Life is short and the basics of survival require daily purchases. So while someone can take a cruddy job while still looking for a better job, all that time does add up to the opportunity cost of going for a PhD. Agree, it’s very much an open question.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#150

Post by mnky9800n »

sebleon wrote: post #56
dwaltrip wrote: post #34

One point jumped out at me, which I haven't seen anyone respond to: > We are concerned about untrained amateurs going directly into trying to solve very difficult global problems. They can then cause harm overall, by lowering the average quality of analysis or launching ill-considered projects due to a lack of experience or understanding. A PhD reduces the risk you’ll accidentally do this. This point is operating off…

It's not an unreasonable opinion, but I doubt a PhD can make up for lack of real-world experience. Likely, the best way to get better at solving global problems is by doing just that for years, preferably alongside others with more experience. IMO learn to swim in the pool.

I've often struggled with what "real world experience" is and how a PhD isn't that. A PhD in science is dominated by doing research every day. PhDs often go into industry positions post phd because of their research experience. I think real world experience ends up just meaning "experience with our specific hardware/software/stack/whatever" and that isn't really anything special at that point.
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