Consider applying for grad school • Hacker News Board

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#121

Post by retsibsi » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 5:30 AM UTC

nolemurs wrote: post #69

> PhDs are intellectually demanding, and not everyone will be able to finish. In the US between 41 and 78% of people who start PhDs have finished them after ten years, depending on their sub field. Computer and Information Science has the lowest graduation rates (41%) Right... I've met a good number of PhD dropouts - I am one myself. None of them dropped out because it was too "intellectually demanding." They all dro…

While I suspect you're right, anecdotal evidence must be fairly weak here. Not many people would admit to themselves that they weren't up to the intellectual challenge -- let alone admit it to other people.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#122

Post by intended » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 6:19 AM UTC

late2part wrote: post #43

dwaltrip wrote: post #34

One point jumped out at me, which I haven't seen anyone respond to: > We are concerned about untrained amateurs going directly into trying to solve very difficult global problems. They can then cause harm overall, by lowering the average quality of analysis or launching ill-considered projects due to a lack of experience or understanding. A PhD reduces the risk you’ll accidentally do this. This point is operating off…

Quite often, these untrained amateurs create great solutions!

In certain context - empty frontiers vs discovered/cultivated regions

Take the Internet -no one had any models for it. You could come up with new innovations and then disrupt other industries or make entirely new frontiers.

But in denser more studied areas - advances are incremental. People don’t come up with magic hashing functions for example.

Or new engine designs - there’s only so much you can do without breaking emissions norms or fuel efficiency or end up having engines which end up getting damaged.

BUT- the dream is always to find that missing or unthought of idea which changes the world.

It’s just relatively easier with an open frontier.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#123

Post by p1esk » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 6:21 AM UTC

newen wrote: post #105

TTPrograms wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a PhD to do research. All information is free now. It's fully possible for individuals to self teach in a working environment and be capable of performing effective research with 2-4 years of good experience after undergrad. To assume that the only way to accomplish this is via PhD is silly. This is especially the case when talking about computer science fields, where the barrier to entry is basically…

Not everyone is a certified genius like Grigori Perelman who can do great research while living in a vacuum. You need great advisors who will guide you, and fellow grad students who you can ask for help and bounce ideas off. The academic enviroment is invaluable for someone doing their PhD, and it's pretty much impossible for someone with somewhat above average intelligence (and let's face it, most PhD's are not geni…

Perelman had great advisors and peers at every stage of his education.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#124

Post by hyperpallium » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 6:28 AM UTC

dwaltrip wrote: post #34

One point jumped out at me, which I haven't seen anyone respond to: > We are concerned about untrained amateurs going directly into trying to solve very difficult global problems. They can then cause harm overall, by lowering the average quality of analysis or launching ill-considered projects due to a lack of experience or understanding. A PhD reduces the risk you’ll accidentally do this. This point is operating off…

A PhD won't make you smart, but does make you read the literature. You could do that on the job, but who would? ...and who would pay you to? Real world experience won't give you even the breadth of knowledge (unless you're working with all the world-leading experts) - let alone feeling the value of the literature, and the skills to access it. This helps you avoid well-known stupid mistakes, and concentrate your energies on all-new stupid mistakes.

OTOH not knowing it won't work can help \_(ツ)_/

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#125

Post by jrumbut » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 8:10 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #103

jrumbut wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying it out now, I guess meet you back at this thread in another 10 years? FYI for others wondering about the same, I wouldn't wait the full 10 years unless you are going to study something very industry adjacent like software engineering methodology. I've had to spend a lot of time relearning anything theoretical. I bet the sweet spot is 2-5 years.

Not to be argumentative, but there is very little research that I've found on software engineering methodology that is in any way convincing. If you've got a good source, I would be incredibly grateful if you shared it! This is one of those areas where I wonder if a PhD is in any way useful. One the one hand in industry you have a complete lack of rigorous controls to measure your effectiveness and on the other hand…

I don't think you're wrong, I've seen a few interesting papers that nibble around the edges, usually examining how bugs get introduced and when they are fixed. I mentioned the field as an example of where someone coming from industry would not have to catch up to someone whose knowledge of Turing machines was still very fresh.

You're right, no trials on methodology that resemble something like clinical trials. And of course the reason for that is it would be incredibly expensive to even run a reasonable pilot (two small teams head to head implementing a realistic system), and if any organization has actually gathered data, it would be the crown jewel of proprietary knowledge. Not something you would ever open source.

The only thing I can say is that an immature field is one with opportunities left. If you can figure out how to jump the hurdles you can make a huge impact.

PS, an example of a bug study like I mentioned (this isn't even that great but just goes to show how hard any sort of software study is): https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.acolyer.org/2018/06/28/how...

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#126

Post by krnsll » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 8:39 AM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #96

Nimitz14 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may shock you, but some people prefer doing research to working a normal job and earning lots of money. Those are the types of people that should and will do PhDs (there are unfortunately a lot who think like you and still try and do a PhD for god knows what reason).

You don't need a PhD to do research. All information is free now. It's fully possible for individuals to self teach in a working environment and be capable of performing effective research with 2-4 years of good experience after undergrad. To assume that the only way to accomplish this is via PhD is silly. This is especially the case when talking about computer science fields, where the barrier to entry is basically…

I disagree as someone in Mathematics.

Sure you can learn a lot from just the literature but in my experience there is a set of heuristics and common understandings/techniques that are often passed on through instructors or peers you're collaborating with that are absent in textbooks. More importantly, points of emphasis and exigent problems in an era of information deluge often come through only when in regular contact with practitioners and attendance of conferences.

These are thoughts that have crystallized for me over a 4 year period of starting math late in undergrad, struggling through and putting a lot of time into non essential aspects in the process of self study to get up to speed, hitting a road block when attempting to self study graduate level material but ultimately managing upon working in an academic setting.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#127

Post by cosmic_ape » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

dwaltrip wrote: post #34

One point jumped out at me, which I haven't seen anyone respond to: > We are concerned about untrained amateurs going directly into trying to solve very difficult global problems. They can then cause harm overall, by lowering the average quality of analysis or launching ill-considered projects due to a lack of experience or understanding. A PhD reduces the risk you’ll accidentally do this. This point is operating off…

Imagine a hospital where a new initiative is taken. Nurses follow doctors during their daily patient rounds for 6 months. Then the nurses are expected to do the rounds instead of the doctors. No doctors are left on the premises.

Its not very clear cut, there are some blurry boundaries, but still, would you want people to use that hospital?

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#128

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #83

Nothing in the article about what one really learns in a Ph.D. program. Here are the things you only learn in a Ph.D. program, more or less in chronological order: 1. What kind of information you will find in each section of a research paper in your field. 2. What are the major research programs in your field and where they disagree. 3. How to identify where a paper's author stands with respect to the major disagreem…

1-4 can be learned by anyone willing to read enough papers in a great, great many fields. The math needed to understand the articles in the Quarterly Journal of Economics or the American Political Science review is in most cases well within reach for the population of potential applicants for a doctorate.

There’s an enormous amount of valuable non-procedural knowledge that most doctoral degree holders have and most non-holders don’t but the average doctor, lawyer or senior civil servant does research that would be impossible without skills 1-4 without ever doing a Ph.D.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#129

Post by gil_rutter » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

currymj wrote: post #7

BadassFractal wrote: post #4

Interesting contrast to the recent wave of posts about how you should absolutely not go for academia in the current market of having 1 job spot for every 3 PhDs. What's one to make of this?

80,000 Hours is a website made by members of a very particular subculture. The “prototypical” PhD they’re imagining is in computer science, probably with a focus on machine learning, probably at a highly-ranked school, by someone who went to a highly-ranked undergrad. Job prospects are relatively good. Pay is bad but industry internships during summer can compensate. Academic jobs are not quite as scarce, and R&D job…

This, also their audience is people trying to optimise for improving the world rather than making money.

Re: Consider applying for grad school

#130

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:31 AM UTC

soohyung wrote: post #44

ransom1538 wrote: post #32

I know this isn't popular. But I will say it - since I know it goes unspoken in the industry. When I see a CS MS degree I assume the person is terrible. I am always proved correct. I can count on one hand resumes of people that gets a CS BS degree THEN a MS degree in CS [15 years of looking at resumes]. In the US, if you get a BS in CS you usually take off doing cool stuff. CS Master degrees are full of people not ma…

It's interesting how different things are here. In Germany it's nearly expected to get a Masters degree because of the way things used to be: until not too long ago we didn't have BS/MS but only a diploma which was equivalent to a Masters degree so many companies still expect a Masters degree even nowadays. From what I've seen it also seems more difficult to get a MS in a different field than your BS here. Is it comm…

From what I remember of my time in Germany it’s not nearly expected to get a Master’s, it’s expected. Getting a Bachelor’s is still the norm in the UK or US, getting a Master’s is the norm in Germany or Austria.

Getting a Master’s in a different field from your Bachrlor’s is so common as to be unremarkable. The ones which are only available to those with significant prior study in the field are the exception, not the rule.