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The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

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Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#171

Post by zasz »

c22 wrote: post #159
zasz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I think it's a lot bigger than that. The woman was the leader of a known, established Burning Man camp. I'm pretty sure the friendships she developed there are more meaningful than the ones she has outside of Burning Man, and it's a bit sad the rest of her life doesn't give her the same social validation. I think we've failed a bit as a society if we can't give people what they need to feel happy on a _slightly_…

I don't know about this woman, but a lot of my current real-world social structure is currently comprised of people I met while forming a burning man camp around an art project. The fact that Burning Man ends each year does not negate these people or relationships from the world on some magical 51 week suspension.

Hopefully, you feel alive while working on your art project with them outside of the burn! Her camp doesn't center around a big art project, though, so that might be why she feels more limited.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#172

Post by WalterSear »

stcredzero wrote: post #95
WalterSear wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important…

Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the givin…

I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#173

Post by c22 »

the_af wrote: post #170
c22 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your argument misses the point because any able bodied person can attend Burning Man if they make doing so a priority in their life. No one is arguing that people who don't care too much about attending don't manage to go, and frankly, even with a bunch of disposable income if your trip to Burning Man was "easy" you're doing it wrong.

I don't know how I can put it more simply: it's definitely not true that any able bodied person can attend Burning Man.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I've been a dozen times and I've met both able bodied and disabled people there from literally every walk of life, including self-described homeless, octogenarians on fixed incomes, people suffocating under medical bills for their cancer treatments, and folks from a dizzying array of far away countries.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#174

Post by c22 »

zasz wrote: post #171
c22 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about this woman, but a lot of my current real-world social structure is currently comprised of people I met while forming a burning man camp around an art project. The fact that Burning Man ends each year does not negate these people or relationships from the world on some magical 51 week suspension.

Hopefully, you feel alive while working on your art project with them outside of the burn! Her camp doesn't center around a big art project, though, so that might be why she feels more limited.

Making the art was great, but honestly since then we mostly just get together to play board games or have potlucks. Most of us haven't even attended Burning Man for the last two or three years (though we still all go to a local regional burn together).

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#175

Post by c22 »

groby_b wrote: post #124
eanzenberg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but this is such a toxic mentality. Yes any able-body person that wants to can work and take a week off if they wanted to. Most don't, and many can't because of responsibilities such as having kids.

Really? And yet, many people in low wage jobs don't get vacation. And even if they get vacation, if they take it when it's inconvenient to management, they get fired. And even if it's not inconvenient, a week off in the desert costs either money (the gear isn't free), or health(without gear, that playa dust is pretty bad for you) What's toxic is unreflecting statements that proclaim general truths for everybody.

With the exception of my first burn I've never worn goggles or a dust mask on the playa and I can assure you the dust has not had any severe negative effects on my health. You can pull off a successful burn solo with an $80 tent, some pieces of rebar, a $30 sleeping bag, a pocket flashlight, 20 cans of chef boyardee, and 12 gallons of drinking water. I know because I have done so. If you find a camp to go with the requirements can get even lower. Honestly the hardest part for me was hitching a ride there ($40 gas share) and scheduling the time off work (I quit when I couldn't get it and got another bullshit job when I came back which turned out to be a stepping stone to a much better default life).

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#176

Post by 3pt14159 »

marnett wrote: post #165
3pt14159 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Toronto. Why?

because i was going to ask to talk about the underground scene you were referring

It's alive in Toronto, but I was specifically thinking of some places / events in Europe and Asia. I actually have no idea if the art / cool scene has any legs anywhere in America.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#177

Post by telchar »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #127
Cowicide wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the exact, same thing as I read that. Burning Man has become what every human endeavor does once it gets "popular". Exploited. Seeing this in city after city across the USA as well. Formerly affordable cities used to grow, attract and keep artists and ground-up, bootsrapped creatives in business. This made these "B-list" cities a cultural hub and (for search of a better word) "cool". Wealthy people (ma…

It's called ecological succession[1], and yes there's no way around it. You can slow it, or you can follow the gradient to stay in the kind of environment you like, but you can't stop it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_succession

But you can reset it periodically with an all-consuming wildfire. I'm not sure how that fits into the analogy though...

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#178

Post by groby_b »

c22 wrote: post #175
groby_b wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? And yet, many people in low wage jobs don't get vacation. And even if they get vacation, if they take it when it's inconvenient to management, they get fired. And even if it's not inconvenient, a week off in the desert costs either money (the gear isn't free), or health(without gear, that playa dust is pretty bad for you) What's toxic is unreflecting statements that proclaim general truths for everybody.

With the exception of my first burn I've never worn goggles or a dust mask on the playa and I can assure you the dust has not had any severe negative effects on my health. You can pull off a successful burn solo with an $80 tent, some pieces of rebar, a $30 sleeping bag, a pocket flashlight, 20 cans of chef boyardee, and 12 gallons of drinking water. I know because I have done so. If you find a camp to go with the re…

You are looking at long-term risks, not "come home feeling sick". Playa dust is >40% silica dust, which has been linked to silicosis and cancer. It's also corrosive. I mean, you do you, and all that, but I wouldn't advise ditching the mask.

But let's ignore that, because the main point was that it's not that easily affordable if you just "work hard enough" - and in your cost estimation, you're conveniently forgetting the ticket fee of $425.

And not everybody can afford to quit their job in hopes they have another one when they come back. I'm glad it's worked out for you, but let's stop pretending it's this giant egalitarian thing available to all.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#179

Post by stcredzero »

WalterSear wrote: post #172
stcredzero wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the givin…

I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?

Whatever community you might or might not belong to, as of 2018, it would probably consist of human beings.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#180

Post by icc97 »

jdietrich wrote: post #117
theossuary wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you know how expensive it would be to sail around the world. Especially if you'd like to do it somewhat comfortably.

You've fallen into the trap of believing that there's only one way of doing things - the preposterously expensive way that's promoted in lifestyle magazines. How much does it cost to learn to sail? If you take a Yachtmaster Offshore course, it'll cost you somewhere in the region of $15,000. If you show up at any marina and look keen, someone in need of crew will take you on board and show you the ropes for free. Many…

My dad bought a 22ft ketch rig for £28k and sold it about 6 years later for around £22k. It was in good condition, certainly nothing threadbare, but no luxury either. He had it around my late teen years, some of the best memories of my childhood were on that boat. So it cost about £1,000 / year split between 4 (2 adults 2 teenagers). Much better experiences than crappy beach holidays.
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