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Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

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Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#11

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

aftbit wrote: post #2

I'm a pretty non-musical person, and time signatures have always confused me. Unfortunately, this explanation left me just as confused. I can hear the difference between the two sample beats but I cannot figure out how to generalize this to other time signatures beyond the 3/4 and 6/8 described here.

It's not a math thing. It's more about feel than counting.

3/4 is ONE two three, with a foot stomp on the ONE. It's a dance beat - STOMP skip skip.

4/4 is so common it appears in a lot of variations, from the bass drum beat of EDM to all the different rock and pop variations. The usual - not infallible, but strongly suggestive - tell is how often the chords change. Failing which, there's often a unique rhythm marker at the starter of each bar.

6/8 is skiddledeediddledee - often used in folk and/or ethnic music. It's a much lighter, more skittery feel.

You can generalise the /8 time sigs to 9/8 and 12/8, although they're more rare. They're often used to signify something exotic, alien, ethnic, or maybe a bit spiritual.

Like this, which you've probably heard, and is in 12/8 when it eventually gets going. The clue is in the phrase length:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLnL63cXmD8

Exotic sigs like 5/4 and 7/4 are much less standardised, so they're open to interpretation. You can play 5/4 as 2+3 or 3+2 or 4+1. Or just as 5.

Likewise 7/4 (listen to the snare):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#12

Post by nerflad »

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox.

(Source: I am a professional drummer)

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#13

Post by DavidPiper »

nerflad wrote: post #12

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox. (Source: I am a professional drummer)

This is not the case.

While some inexperienced composers/arrangers/scorers may transcribe 3/4 pieces in 6/8 to make the score look better, it is a fundamentally incorrect thing to do.

3/4 has one significant beat per bar: ONE two three | ONE two three

- Think any waltz you've ever heard.

6/8 has two siginficant beats per bar: ONE two three Four five six | ONE to three Four five six

- Think Follow the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz, or We Are the Champions by Queen.

The second down beat has less significance than the first. In this way 6/8 is like 2/4, except in triple form, not duple form. Pieces in 6/8 do not (and generally should not) feel the same as pieces written in 3/4.

The only thing 3/4 and 6/8 share is the number of note-lengths that fit into a bar, which has no bearing on the feel, sound or rhythm of a piece.

Sources: https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15 , https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36fn1g/i_still... , and own experience

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#15

Post by pishpash »

DavidPiper wrote: post #13
nerflad wrote: post #12

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox. (Source: I am a professional drummer)

This is not the case. While some inexperienced composers/arrangers/scorers may transcribe 3/4 pieces in 6/8 to make the score look better, it is a fundamentally incorrect thing to do. 3/4 has one significant beat per bar: ONE two three | ONE two three - Think any waltz you've ever heard. 6/8 has two siginficant beats per bar: ONE two three Four five six | ONE to three Four five six - Think Follow the Yellow Brick Roa…

6/8 doesn't need 2 (or any static number of) significant beats. As long as there are really 6 rhythmic atoms before the pattern repeats, it deserves a 6/x.

The easiest way that happens is lcm(2,3).

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#16

Post by [deleted] »

nerflad wrote: post #12

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox. (Source: I am a professional drummer)

[deleted]

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#17

Post by delinka »

abruzzi wrote: post #7
glitcher wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May or may not be helpful, but the way I learned it: numerator = beats per measure denominator = which note "gets the beat" 3/4 time has 3 beats per measure, where quarter (1/4) notes get the beat. 6/8 time has 6 beats per measure, where eighth notes get the beat. etc...

Not quite. It is correct to say that the numerator is the count and the denominator is what is counted. So 3/4 is 3 quarter notes, and 6/8 is 6 eighth notes. However which notes get the beat is a bit more fuzzy. 6/8 is usually but not always two beats per measure, with three eighths per beat (counted 1-tee-ta 2-tee-ta) That gets to the concept of simple and compound meter. In simple meter the the beat gets divided in…

"... two beats per measure, with three eighths per beat (counted 1-tee-ta 2-tee-ta)"

I've never heard this. I've only ever heard it as "1 2 3 4 5 6"

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#18

Post by quadrangle »

pishpash wrote: post #15
DavidPiper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case. While some inexperienced composers/arrangers/scorers may transcribe 3/4 pieces in 6/8 to make the score look better, it is a fundamentally incorrect thing to do. 3/4 has one significant beat per bar: ONE two three | ONE two three - Think any waltz you've ever heard. 6/8 has two siginficant beats per bar: ONE two three Four five six | ONE to three Four five six - Think Follow the Yellow Brick Roa…

6/8 doesn't need 2 (or any static number of) significant beats. As long as there are really 6 rhythmic atoms before the pattern repeats, it deserves a 6/x. The easiest way that happens is lcm(2,3).

It's called convention. By convention (not by anything about the notation itself), 6/8 is used for compound time with 2 significant beats.

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#19

Post by pishpash »

theoh wrote: post #4
glitcher wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May or may not be helpful, but the way I learned it: numerator = beats per measure denominator = which note "gets the beat" 3/4 time has 3 beats per measure, where quarter (1/4) notes get the beat. 6/8 time has 6 beats per measure, where eighth notes get the beat. etc...

The denominator is not as important as the numerator. (The Wikipedia page on time signatures makes that clear) One thing about 6/8 that is not literally communicated by the notation is the rhythm: the first and fourth beats of the bar are stressed. But not equally, because that would be indistinguishable from 3/8.

The denominator is not important at all, though there seems to be a convention of keeping the rhythm fraction around 1, so 6/8 instead of 6/4, but say, 5/4 instead of 5/8.

And 6/8 says nothing about the beat structure within the 6 beats. You're stating the most common occurrence, but that's not the definition of 6/8.

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#20

Post by quadrangle »

nerflad wrote: post #12

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox. (Source: I am a professional drummer)

You may be a professional drummer, but you are of some sort of mindset that has you in denial of the concept of convention. You also certainly feel rhythm but do not intellectually understand it.

Rhythm is a cognitive/perceptual/psychological process whereby we relate events to one another. It is not mere timing. When you impose in your mind a structure on a timing by giving extra attention to certain events, then you are experiencing rhythm. taDA and TAda are different rhythms even if the timing is the same and the sounds even are the same but you treat them as having those accent patterns (either at-will or through other things that draw your attention such as a their timing in relation to a meter that has gotten set in your mind or even visual cues as to which should be accented).

The 3/4 vs 6/8 distinction is a historic convention, not something in the math. By convention, 6/8 is divided into 2 sets of 3. And yes, these get fuzzy in various real-world concepts like the whole idea of hemiola which is the overlaying of these two meters.

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