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The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

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Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#141

Post by kiliantics »

alevskaya wrote: post #66
kiliantics wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participatin…

No one is claiming that BM is a replacement for local civic involvement! But I also don’t like the moral tone of claims about what other people -should- be doing with their time. Sure, some people just go out there to party - who cares? I recall H. L. Mencken: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” As much as we’d like to make it more accessible, it -is- a weird art event in the remote…

Many people talk about burning man as if it is an experiment for a new kind of alternative society and your comment was reminiscent of that kind of talk - "we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation... it’s worth trying to address that". This rhetoric always sounds to me like burners believe they have found the cure and if only everyone would see the world as they do we would live in harmony.

I've never been to a burn but I do agree with these diagnoses about the shortcomings of our society. I also make efforts in my community to confront these problems and it is a whole lot harder to change things than just going out and partying in the desert. I have no problem with people going out and partying but I don't think people should be claiming that it is much more than just that - a party.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#142

Post by biztos »

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

> Its art will never appeal to the traditional critic who worries more about the statement of art than it’s artifact.

That didn't stop the Smithsonian from trying to take it "seriously"[0], nor the Art World from objecting to that[1]. Perhaps weirdly, I applaud both things, because as far as I can tell you're right about what the point of BM art is.

(I am one of the few? many? people to have never attended Burning Man, but to have contributed to its art. I'm probably biased and ill-informed, but I like your take on it.)

[0]: https://americanart.si.edu/exhibitions/burning-man

[1]: Argh! Can't find it online but IIRC either Frieze or Flash Art had a pretty on-point takedown of the show from the "serious art" point of view.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#143

Post by Lichtenbat »

Burning Man was a once in a lifetime thing for me. I heard it was like a massive rave, and it was better than that! It definitely is a better fit for the party people than I thought. It’s a no fear environment that is generally safe. Plus it’s desert camping, so it’s logistically a blast as well.

For people who don’t party, they get a chance to decompress and live at a different pace.

As an old school massive promoter in SF/SoCal and CO, it’s great it comes back year after year! Time to one up the previous!

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#144

Post by burkaman »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #129
burkaman wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what country you live in, but the US has no legally mandated vacation time. 23% of private sector workers get 0 days. https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-d...

I was kind of shocked at that number, people getting 0 days of vacation? But no, the figure in your reference is paid vacation. These people ostensibly take non-paid days off. I expect most Burning Man attendees are not getting paid to attend, and that's a strange bar to set.

I suspect most people with no paid vacation are working low wage jobs, and a) can't afford to forgo several hundred dollars of lost wages, b) can't afford to travel anywhere if they could take time off, and c) might be fired and immediately replaced if they asked for a week off without a "good" reason.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#145

Post by jimmywanger »

I know that Reno locals hate Burning Man and burners in general. Whenever Burning Man comes to town, a lot of canned food and bottled beverages are sold out, they don't spend much money in town, and on the way home, they're still in party mode, and spun out of their mind, and raise hell in local establishments.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#146

Post by adrianN »

jdietrich wrote: post #43
com2kid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that sad? She found something she enjoys doing. Better than someone who has yet to find that spark that gives life meaning. Is everyone in the advertising business supposed to love making adverts? I certainly feel more alive camping with friends than I do debugging JavaScript. I'm lucky enough to have a life where I can go on 2 or 3 major vacations a year with friends and family with another couple smaller tri…

If you're an advertising executive or a software developer and decide that you'd be happier living in the desert and making weird sculptures from scrap, that is very much an option . Living in a cabin in the woods or sailing around the world or establishing a commune for circus artists is a thing that you can do, and you don't need to be a millionaire to do it.

Living in a shed with basically no income works okay while you're relatively young and healthy. It really kills your chances of living comfortably when you're old and can't work on your potato patch anymore.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#147

Post by pokemongoaway »

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

No need to justify doing fun things, but I don't see evidence that people get more done there than they do in the real world, which is too uninspiring. I've been around enough burners to know how their social heirarchies work. Sure there are exceptions, but I don't see why we shouldn't recognize something that becomes the rule. Also, the diversity of acceptable opinion there is very narrow - and this is another aspect of many of the burner social heirarchies. Of course anyone who wants to build art, get inspired, party, etc - should do that and strive for greatness. But the reality is that most people who go to burning man get more done for and because of "the real world" than what they do for or because of burning man. The perception that human interactions at burning man are somehow truer than the ones in every day Life is delusional. It's more of an escape.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#148

Post by beaconstudios »

peterwwillis wrote: post #72
zasz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went in 2010 and one of the first people I met there was an advertising exec who said this event was the only time she felt alive. It was really sad.

Luckily, this isn't all the attendees, but for the repeat ones, yeah. It is sad. They say things like they're "home" when they're at a burn, and they literally get depressed for a week back in the "default world". The fact that these people seem completely incapable of understanding how to live the life they want more than 1 week a year is astounding. If you want to be naked, spin fire, drink and do drugs with your f…

> They say things like they're "home" when they're at a burn, and they literally get depressed for a week back in the "default world".

That's probably the MDMA comedown, to be honest.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#149

Post by pixl97 »

baxtr wrote: post #104
Chathamization wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every year there are articles about how Burning Man has 'lost' or is 'done'. Yeah, I wonder what the earliest article about that is. I did a brief search for the decline of Burning Man found a Wired article from 1997[1] (and of course numerous people talking about the decline later, like this blog post from 2004[2]). It reminds me of all those "I'm 13, is it too late for me to start learning programming/body buildi…

Reminds me of the “Worst wasp season in 20 years” articles we get here in Germany every year ...

That said, it could be true if each year is progressively worse.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#150

Post by the_af »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #129
burkaman wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what country you live in, but the US has no legally mandated vacation time. 23% of private sector workers get 0 days. https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-d...

I was kind of shocked at that number, people getting 0 days of vacation? But no, the figure in your reference is paid vacation. These people ostensibly take non-paid days off. I expect most Burning Man attendees are not getting paid to attend, and that's a strange bar to set.

A lot of "able bodied" people in many countries simply cannot afford to take time off to go to some party in the desert. They don't have the money, they have problems, their jobs can easily be lost, they have families (maybe spouses or kids who do NOT want to go to the desert).

Plenty of real-world reasons to be able-bodied and NOT being able to attend some desert party on a whim.

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