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The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

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Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#61

Post by jancsika »

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

> To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle.

Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be immensely more efficient to have a forum where you teach everyone how to type in their browser to inflate the work shed hidden there?

Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles.

It's also less of a risk if those people happen to be high at the time.

Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#63

Post by komali2 »

jancsika wrote: post #61
alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

> To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle. Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be immensely more efficient to have a forum where you teach everyon…

>Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be [programming]?

Why does art have to be programming art? Why do they have to be learning about computers?

>They can look down their noses at the idealism of those who thought to try to make something for once, instead of leaving the important job of art to those who know better, who have the right ideals, the right politics, the right message.

Isn't this just "looking down your nose" at someone who wants to build sheds instead of messing about in chrome dev tools?

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#64

Post by eanzenberg »

kiliantics wrote: post #37
alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participatin…

Any able-body can get to this

>>can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert

if they work hard enough.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#65

Post by komali2 »

com2kid wrote: post #38
zasz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went in 2010 and one of the first people I met there was an advertising exec who said this event was the only time she felt alive. It was really sad.

Why is that sad? She found something she enjoys doing. Better than someone who has yet to find that spark that gives life meaning. Is everyone in the advertising business supposed to love making adverts? I certainly feel more alive camping with friends than I do debugging JavaScript. I'm lucky enough to have a life where I can go on 2 or 3 major vacations a year with friends and family with another couple smaller tri…

I think it's sad because wouldn't you rather have a life when you could go camping whenever you want, if that was the thing that brought you the most joy?

I think capitalism is sad, I think society is sad. I think it's unnecessary. I think it's sad that in reading this sentiment, there will be people that will reflexively scoff at me for my communist, hippy ideals. "Happiness, you fool! You have to WORK for a living?" "You want communism, why don't you move to VIETNAM and tell me how it's working out!" I need to work to pay a cell phone bill and my world of warcraft subscription. I don't need to work to stay alive. I've gathered berries before, it's not so bad. As 3d printing and solar energy gathering/storage techs get better, the idea of "working" (generating value for your local billionaire) is going to become sillier and sillier.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#66

Post by alevskaya »

kiliantics wrote: post #37
alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participatin…

No one is claiming that BM is a replacement for local civic involvement! But I also don’t like the moral tone of claims about what other people -should- be doing with their time. Sure, some people just go out there to party - who cares? I recall H. L. Mencken: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” As much as we’d like to make it more accessible, it -is- a weird art event in the remote desert, logistically limited to a small number of people. Look, the first step to civic engagement is actually thinking it’s something worth caring about. I grew up in an impoverished, hollowed-out place - I know it might sound ridiculous, but as an American in my generation the very idea of ‘society’ can be a hard concept to pick up as we don’t always get the chance to experience it growing up. Even a toy example can be illuminating to idiots like I was...

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#67

Post by timerol »

dfxm12 wrote: post #45
com2kid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that sad? She found something she enjoys doing. Better than someone who has yet to find that spark that gives life meaning. Is everyone in the advertising business supposed to love making adverts? I certainly feel more alive camping with friends than I do debugging JavaScript. I'm lucky enough to have a life where I can go on 2 or 3 major vacations a year with friends and family with another couple smaller tri…

Better to feel alive one week per year than zero, I guess. What is she the other 51 though? We're only - conscience? - for so long. It's sad if anyone laments that they only ever truly feel alive for ~2% of that time. If you want to feel alive, you don't need a major vacation or escape to do so. Or, at least, I posit that you don't. Do you not feel alive hanging out in the neighborhood park (or wherever) with your fr…

FYI, you probably meant "conscious", as in mentally aware of the world. "Conscience" is your internal moral compass, which makes your sentence read as though people care less about right and wrong after a period of time. Which is it's own interesting idea...

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#68

Post by peterwwillis »

The only part of this article I find annoying is the artistic elitism. Burning Man is great because any asshole can create art and have lots of people see it and interact with it without it being judged by an art critic, or have to somehow get accepted into an art show or museum.

The purpose of Burning Man, and a burn in general, is to participate. If you're not participating, there is no purpose to Burning Man. This creates a good deal of the confusion and indifference to the event by spectators, and the world at large.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#69

Post by the_af »

eanzenberg wrote: post #64
kiliantics wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participatin…

Any able-body can get to this >>can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert if they work hard enough.

No, not really. Maybe the readers of HN can, though. Which I suppose is part of user killantics' point.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#70

Post by egypturnash »

jancsika wrote: post #61
alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

> To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle. Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be immensely more efficient to have a forum where you teach everyon…

> Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles.

I seriously cannot tell if you are trolling or not. "Helping to build a sculpture-cum-shelter out in the desert" is worlds away from "making someone else's webpage rotate".

And making a physical thing is a very different feeling from making a digital thing. I make comics and put them online; I also print them, and there is a lot more satisfaction in having a book I can put on my shelf and say "I made this" than a webpage I can point to. The book will probably survive me longer than the webpage, which vanishes up to a year after the account set up to auto-renew the domain and hosting runs out of money.

> Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners.

True dat. There's also a buttload of smaller Burns in various places that haven't gotten big enough to be as much of a tempting target.

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