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A study of musical scales (2017)

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Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#21

Post by jm_l »

TaupeRanger wrote: post #9
swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #8

This is fascinating! Unfortunately I don't understand even half of it, I've been wanting to learn music theory for some time I should go back and learn to play a musical instrument

There's not much "music theory" here aside from the knowledge that there are 12 notes which repeat in octaves. He mentions a few modes (phrygian, etc) but that's not particularly esoteric. The rest is relating those ideas to simple mathematical constructs and seeing what comes out.

To understand propriety/coherence (about 2/3 of the way down the page) you'll also need to have an understanding of enharmonics, and perhaps some context on why it's important to be able to know whether an interval is e.g. an augmented 3rd or a perfect fourth.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#22

Post by ibejoeb »

kazinator wrote: post #19

The problem with this is is that it accepts the twelve-tone equal temperament system as a sort of absolute frame of reference, rather than the compromise/approximation that it is. Musical scales are not just check-box menu choices out of twelve-tone equal temperament.

That's the first thing that the author states.

I'll bet you know more music than me, but maybe that puts me more into the target audience. It's a very interesting way to explore essentially the whole of western music. I did some similar "modeling" when I was learning, too, mostly because it's an effective way for me to commit things to memory. I remember struggling with using tones/scale degrees or intervals as a basis, just as the author describes.

It might not be universal and suitable for high-level academic use, but I don't think there's a problem with it.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#23

Post by kazinator »

ibejoeb wrote: post #22
kazinator wrote: post #19

The problem with this is is that it accepts the twelve-tone equal temperament system as a sort of absolute frame of reference, rather than the compromise/approximation that it is. Musical scales are not just check-box menu choices out of twelve-tone equal temperament.

That's the first thing that the author states. I'll bet you know more music than me, but maybe that puts me more into the target audience. It's a very interesting way to explore essentially the whole of western music. I did some similar "modeling" when I was learning, too, mostly because it's an effective way for me to commit things to memory. I remember struggling with using tones/scale degrees or intervals as a bas…

The problem is that the twelve-tone system was designed for a very specific "use case", in the context of a certain kind of music: classical/Baroque revolving around major and minor scales, modulating around the cycle of fifths. For anything else, it is basically a misuse. Mass produced equal temperament instruments are used all over the world and basically turn the local music into shlocky pop.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#24

Post by scrozier »

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #8

This is fascinating! Unfortunately I don't understand even half of it, I've been wanting to learn music theory for some time I should go back and learn to play a musical instrument

I have to agree with TaupeRanger here. This certainly has (almost) nothing to do with playing an instrument. It has little to do with music theory in the traditional sense. This is for the programmer/mathematician side of your brain, primarily. For the musician side, get a little electronic keyboard, poke around at it, and buy an introductory music theory book.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#25

Post by joeminichino »

kazinator wrote: post #19

The problem with this is is that it accepts the twelve-tone equal temperament system as a sort of absolute frame of reference, rather than the compromise/approximation that it is. Musical scales are not just check-box menu choices out of twelve-tone equal temperament.

I tried listening to a 15-tone ET piano piece ones. Sure, maybe I'm not worthy, and too limited in my musical understanding (although I have been a musicians since the age of 6 and i'm now 43), but it just sounded like a piano out of tune. 12-tet is more than enough to experiment with for the rest of my life

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#26

Post by romaniv »

z2 wrote: post #10

For something that puts this to action--Wolfram made a random music generator in 2005 with a ton of scales. http://tones.wolfram.com

I bet this would be #1 comment if something in the process used neural networks and if it wasn't from Wolfram.

Anyway, pretty cool generator.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#27

Post by crazynick4 »

joeminichino wrote: post #25
kazinator wrote: post #19

The problem with this is is that it accepts the twelve-tone equal temperament system as a sort of absolute frame of reference, rather than the compromise/approximation that it is. Musical scales are not just check-box menu choices out of twelve-tone equal temperament.

I tried listening to a 15-tone ET piano piece ones. Sure, maybe I'm not worthy, and too limited in my musical understanding (although I have been a musicians since the age of 6 and i'm now 43), but it just sounded like a piano out of tune. 12-tet is more than enough to experiment with for the rest of my life

Part of it could be due to conditioning but part of it is due to the fact that 15 TET is just another type of compromise, one that actually puts the perfect fifth even more out of tune than 12 TET, even though some of the other intervals are less tempered.

I'm sure you've heard about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

Most people brush off the concept because of a lack of accessible music, and because a lot of musicians writing the music, well, let's just say they lack a sense of popular sentiment. I don't think it discredits the theory, which is based in physics. Potentially, tuning intervals by ratios can be used to write the same style of music we are used to (without tempered intervals) just as well as providing harmonies that we don't have access to in our prevalent (Western) tuning system.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#28

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

joeminichino wrote: post #25
kazinator wrote: post #19

The problem with this is is that it accepts the twelve-tone equal temperament system as a sort of absolute frame of reference, rather than the compromise/approximation that it is. Musical scales are not just check-box menu choices out of twelve-tone equal temperament.

I tried listening to a 15-tone ET piano piece ones. Sure, maybe I'm not worthy, and too limited in my musical understanding (although I have been a musicians since the age of 6 and i'm now 43), but it just sounded like a piano out of tune. 12-tet is more than enough to experiment with for the rest of my life

You have been listening to 12-tet literally your entire life, so microtonal music is inevitably going to sound strange.

Having said that, 15-tet is pretty rancid. 22-tet can be much more consonant.

Try this, which is in just intonation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZUQqOLyPQ

It's contemporary but still sort-of accessible for many people.

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#29

Post by bradford »

kazinator wrote: post #23
ibejoeb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the first thing that the author states. I'll bet you know more music than me, but maybe that puts me more into the target audience. It's a very interesting way to explore essentially the whole of western music. I did some similar "modeling" when I was learning, too, mostly because it's an effective way for me to commit things to memory. I remember struggling with using tones/scale degrees or intervals as a bas…

The problem is that the twelve-tone system was designed for a very specific "use case", in the context of a certain kind of music: classical/Baroque revolving around major and minor scales, modulating around the cycle of fifths. For anything else, it is basically a misuse. Mass produced equal temperament instruments are used all over the world and basically turn the local music into shlocky pop.

> The problem is that the twelve-tone system was designed for a very specific "use case"

This isn't really correct though. Twelve is used because it has certain properties of divisibility that make life easier for the musician.

When the wavelengths of two notes form simple mathematical ratios, they have a stability that sounds nice, and this makes it easier to construct intervals and chords.

Wouldn't choosing a non-twelve division be more of a limit?

Re: A study of musical scales (2017)

#30

Post by [deleted] »

crazynick4 wrote: post #27
joeminichino wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried listening to a 15-tone ET piano piece ones. Sure, maybe I'm not worthy, and too limited in my musical understanding (although I have been a musicians since the age of 6 and i'm now 43), but it just sounded like a piano out of tune. 12-tet is more than enough to experiment with for the rest of my life

Part of it could be due to conditioning but part of it is due to the fact that 15 TET is just another type of compromise, one that actually puts the perfect fifth even more out of tune than 12 TET, even though some of the other intervals are less tempered. I'm sure you've heard about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation Most people brush off the concept because of a lack of accessible music, and becaus…

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