The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man • Hacker News Board

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#31

Post by anon08142018 » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

fluxmglrbly wrote: post #21

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #5

Having participated in a lot of countercultural gatherings, I was initially intrigued about Burning Man. But if you hear about an event from the mass media, instead of through word of mouth in your own small countercultural community, chances are that the event is already past its prime. After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s, and then hearing more recent attendees describe their…

> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s There were people already saying "it's not cool any more" even in the 90s. That was in fact how I first heard about Burning Man, due to someone complaining about it not being cool anymore, around 97 or so. Very likely people have pretty much always said it. It's like the old joke about how the first car race happened the day someone built…

I remember watching that Netflix documentary on Burning Man and it looked like a great time. I really don't understand all the hate. A younger me would probably think its cool to poke fun at Burning man, but in reality its not like I'm doing anything more interesting sitting at home.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#32

Post by saganus » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

"The art of trying" sounds like a very interesting concept.

Wouldn't mind reading an article on that, if you ever feel like writing it :)

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#33

Post by creep » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

aaroninsf wrote: post #20

Not going this year; have gone maybe 20 times starting in 95. There was IMO and experience genuinely something special (I won't say unique, but probably... unique) there, which is now vestigial. Still discoverable but at a time, in some strata of the event, all but axiomatic. I would describe that special thing as an emergent aspirational culture of techno-utopianism made possible by expending profound resources in t…

You'll always find the freaks in society if you're authentic about your freakish nature, to address one point in your comment.

It's simple but I really do have this kind of emergent, creative, slightly anarchist experience in every day life simply by stepping out the front door. As long as I have the presence of mind to recognize myself in someone else (and empathy, and genuine other-love with that self-love) something fantastic will happen, something strange that changes me and others.

Other than this I really don't know what you're saying about burning man, but I think the concept as I understand it can flourish under modern city-conditions, maybe only in such conditions. There never will be a time when the dam isn't about to burst, unless it already has and we're in that moment of filling up again. That's what's wonderful, there is no permanence. That essential property underlies everything, there is nothing to worry about, no potential lost just funneled elsewhere. Maybe when people recognize this they won't go looking for love at burning man. I'm sure it's still worth it for the surrealism.

edit: and you can't get by on just a feeling and a quick session of analysis.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#34

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:03 PM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #16

I’m turned off from going by the fact that it seems the only friends I know that go are a narrow demographic of your typical techie. They plan their entire year around it and act like it’s their sole purpose in life. Honestly I don’t want to end up like that, thinking that the real world offers no thrill or spectacle or surprises such that I need to reduce my life down into a few weeks in the desert at the end of the…

[deleted]

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#35

Post by TaylorAlexander » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:03 PM UTC

I recall reading an article a few years ago about how every year, people declare burning man “dead” or dying. People write articles about how it’s not how it used to be. How the message is lost. Every year.

When I talk to people who go, most of them seem to suggest it’s still an amazing place. I guess it largely depends on who you are. I really dislike the society we’ve built. It feels too focused on work (I live in the Bay Area) and not enough on community. So burning man sounds ideal for me, it’s just been scheduling issues that have so far prevented me from going.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that apparently these articles come up every year. Take them with a grain of salt.

Edit: here’s the article. https://journal.burningman.org/2016/10/philosophical-center/...

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#36

Post by fiter » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:04 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #28

fiter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things you can only reasonably do once a year, and I think it'd be a disservice to them to not do some planning. I like to think of it like a harvest festival: we've worked all year, let's enjoy some of the fruits of our labor.

But it would be like judging people who work in the field, spending the entire year on the centerpiece and then burning it to the ground after the festival.

I think there's a bit more made than what's burned, but I believe we can agree that you can also think of it like a sand mandala[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mandala

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#37

Post by kiliantics » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:13 PM UTC

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert?

There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participating. For some reason, however, many of the people I know that go to Burning Man, and many of the kinds of people that typically do go, are never involved in those kinds of local organising initiatives...

It would be nice if these ideals about art were more commonly expressed and engaged with in the areas where they are really sorely needed, rather than in a remote place that people need to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get to and be in.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#38

Post by com2kid » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #19

iamleppert wrote: post #16

I’m turned off from going by the fact that it seems the only friends I know that go are a narrow demographic of your typical techie. They plan their entire year around it and act like it’s their sole purpose in life. Honestly I don’t want to end up like that, thinking that the real world offers no thrill or spectacle or surprises such that I need to reduce my life down into a few weeks in the desert at the end of the…

I went in 2010 and one of the first people I met there was an advertising exec who said this event was the only time she felt alive. It was really sad.

Why is that sad? She found something she enjoys doing. Better than someone who has yet to find that spark that gives life meaning.

Is everyone in the advertising business supposed to love making adverts?

I certainly feel more alive camping with friends than I do debugging JavaScript. I'm lucky enough to have a life where I can go on 2 or 3 major vacations a year with friends and family with another couple smaller trips spread throughout the year. For people with a busier schedule, I can see them taking great pleasure in the one time a year they get to escape.

Especially since so many people never get to escape. I know plenty of people who never have had a vacation, and may very well die without ever having a day off from work and life and stress.

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#39

Post by gammateam » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12

gammateam wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism The founding members weren't serious about "radical self reliance" as their congregation now repeats without practicing Its also more of a heroin hit for these people, the second hits will never be as good as the first, but its still the first hit fo…

> But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism Perhaps you misunderstand. I did not mean that those old-timers complained about Burning Man today and said it was passé. Some of them have not even gone again since that era two decades ago. But simply talking to a 1990s participant and a more recent participant about what they remember of the event reveals details of logist…

I see

Some of that crowd does to the area on the 4th of July week now. They say its more like how it used to be

Re: The Vanishing Idealism of Burning Man

#40

Post by WalterSear » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

kiliantics wrote: post #37

alevskaya wrote: post #23

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth tryi…

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participatin…

Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism.

Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important ingroup, because they feel that the larger social environment has not provided them with that psychological support they need - people they identify with and share their values. Important enough to traipse from all over the world to the middle of nowhere to be a part of it.

This may or may not be actually the case - perhaps the perception of it is in part what makes the reality. It is, IMHO, what caused it's initial resonance and success; it was real at one point, for many participants.

So, it's not realistic to expect these personal needs for community to be transferable to just anywhere, unless that other community is also able to meet those needs.

I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with.