Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#71

Post by bojo » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #41

bojo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years. A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun! Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expec…

Just want to say that I can totally understand this as well. If you can't get a normal salaryman job, it can really be hand to mouth. I haven't even tried to get an IT job here and I'm pretty worried if I end up without a remote contract after my current gig is up. Also, super +1 on the bored old guy thing :-) Best part of my day (although I'm rapidly becoming the bored old guy...)

I worked at mobile game companies. Lots of different opportunities ranging from backend infra/dev to game client programming. Sadly it’s a risky business, two of the three places I worked went out of business because they focused on expanding and not getting solid products in place.

If you have any level of experience I'm sure a company would interview you and take you in, especially if you speak the language.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#72

Post by glandium » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #67

dbjh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote doesn't invalidate anything I wrote. My response proved jimmywanger's claim "no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government" to be false. Also note how he moved the goalposts. In his original post he talks about how Koreans are oppressed, while in the second post he changed it to have been oppressed in the past . I have no interest in discussing the definition of "slave". I do find it…

> I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan. Trying to read somebody's motives (who you have never met) is mostly incorrect. Japanese people in Japan are incredibly racist towards other Asian people. And the Japanese government is backpedaling and still visits a s…

> and still visits a shrine with convicted war criminals celebrated as casualties.

Not trying to be apologetic, but I recently learned that the Yasukuni shrine is _also_ the "home" of Sakamoto Ryōma and others involved in the Tokugawa shogunate overthrow and the following Meiji restoration, so it's not /that/ simple.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#73

Post by bojo » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:18 AM UTC

glandium wrote: post #59

lmiller1990 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

> Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I don't understand This has changed in recent years. At least in the prefecture I live in (Aichi), and where I've traveled outside Tokyo, people just start talking to me in Japanese. 15 years ago, when I lived in Japan for 15 months, it would happen that they'd first try English or I'd feel they were hesitant to speak Japanese to me (but still d…

I’ve noticed this too. Years ago I had to lead with a hesitant あの so they’d be aware, but these days they just dive right in.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#74

Post by chupasaurus » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:24 AM UTC

loblollyboy wrote: post #16

mikekchar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even o…

Are a lot of them Russian. I’m on tandem, and it seems like a lot of Russians are learning Japanese and (of course) English

Probably because we had too much anime aired on TV in 90s.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#75

Post by chupasaurus » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:43 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #6

jimmywanger wrote: post #2

If you're ethnically Asian but don't speak Japanese, Japan will not be welcoming at all. If you don't look ethnically Asian, Japanese people will give you allowances and defer to you. However, if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed[0]. They speak fluent Japanese and their families have lived 3 generations in Japan. [0] https://en.wikipedia…

My student who was of Korean decent but was the most popular person in high school and went to a good university would disagree with you. As would my friend who was born in Korea, married a Japanese woman and moved to Japan. There is discrimination in Japan, but it's frustrating to see this trotted out time and time again as if you'll be systemically discriminated against no matter where you are. It's just not true.…

While I was thinking about moving permanently to Japan, I had a fun notice: in order to get japanese citizenship, I have to give up mine russian and I could be counted as a traitor in Russia (no peace treaty for 74 years and counting!).

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#76

Post by krapp » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 11:55 AM UTC

ericdykstra wrote: post #8

I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something…

Everywhere else immigration and Japan are mentioned on HN, the consensus seems to be that Japan is doomed to lose its unique culture and societal cohesion due to immigration and the loss of its ethnic homogeneity... but apparently not when "we" are the immigrants.

Odd, that.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#77

Post by anjc » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 12:28 PM UTC

glandium wrote: post #70

anjc wrote: post #66

Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy weather events for much of the year...it's no paradise. You'll frequently see things happen which are downright illegal in the Western world. For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist…

> For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they di…

I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language.

Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts of Tokyo in touristy areas. I'm a middle aged academic too, not exactly the type to ever cause trouble. Deny service in Europe in this manner and see what happens.

I don't even care, personally. They can serve who they want. It just may be a shock to people who assume that the Japanese will be largely welcoming of outsiders.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#78

Post by glandium » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #77

glandium wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they di…

I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language. Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts…

Congratulations, you've found the goose that laid golden eggs. And now you say all geese lay golden eggs.

BTW, I'm not sure this isn't actually illegal. But as always, it's not because it's illegal that aholes won't do it.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#79

Post by sofon » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #65

sofon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, so... no data then, just a series of quotes and observations about individuals. I'd honestly be interested in learning about racism in Japan, and if it is different/worse than other countries. But all that's been presented is anecdotes.

I cited wikipedia and a UN observer. What else do you want as data? Survey data? Who would answer a survey asking if you were racist, specifically if you're racist towards certain ethnic groups? What are you realistically asking for that will change your mind?

Yes, survey data. And to be clear, the world value survey has asked questions covering racism. In particular:

"Would you accept someone of a different race as a neighbour?"

and

"How often do you see racist behaviour in your neighbourhood?"

You could also look at mobility of foreign workers of as opposed to native workers of a similar background. Unfortunately the world value survey results don't really support your case. You'd want the racism broken down by ethnicity I guess if you believe that the Japanese are particularly racist against other Asians.

The refugee figures help support the idea that Japan is more racist (Japan accept far fewer refugees than other countries), but as this is a political issue, rather than based on the reaction of individual Japanese people, it's harder to draw conclusions from this.

But yes, I don't really find a comment by an individual, or unquantified data from wikipedia very compelling.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#80

Post by Regardsyjc » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

xaranke wrote: post #22

ericdykstra wrote: post #8

I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something…

Can you comment on whether racism is still a thing in Japanese society?

I'm not Japanese but if Japanese culture is like Korean culture, there is subtle racism for foreigners but far from a crazy American level. More racism with darker shades of skin color.

If this is an example of collective Asian cultures and racism- I'm Korean-American but I'm not considered Korean in Korean culture. If anyone watched Crazy Rich Asians, it's exactly like that. You might have a Chinese face and speak Chinese, but you will never be Chinese or one of us.