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Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

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Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#221
post #215

Here is one thing we can do about it: make public service announcement to our users that we no longer recommend Intel CPUs because of security holes, censorship and crippled performance. I am going to do that today. While we only have several thousand users they do CPU intensive work, buy a lot of new CPUs and rent a lot of servers. My small contribution will likely amount to low-mid 6 figures out of Intel pocket in…

Honest question: is AMD any better? Do they somehow manage to avoid Spectre / Meltdown without a slowdown?

AMD is better, they are still affected by side channel attacks but they did not skipped on security checks and are not affected by speculative execution AFAIK

https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/security-updates

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#222
post #215

Here is one thing we can do about it: make public service announcement to our users that we no longer recommend Intel CPUs because of security holes, censorship and crippled performance. I am going to do that today. While we only have several thousand users they do CPU intensive work, buy a lot of new CPUs and rent a lot of servers. My small contribution will likely amount to low-mid 6 figures out of Intel pocket in…

Honest question: is AMD any better? Do they somehow manage to avoid Spectre / Meltdown without a slowdown?

Yes. Their arch is just different, they where not affected by meltdown and the chances of a spektre exploit actually working are very small. I don't know why that is the case but basically amd is 99% free from this story.

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#223
Does intel seriously think there won't be hundreds of people publishing benchmarks?

We live in a time where thepiratebay still thrives, Snowden did his think and wikileaks is a thing, and Intel thinks they'll stop someone publishing benchmarks.... of a cpu.... ?

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#224
post #215

Here is one thing we can do about it: make public service announcement to our users that we no longer recommend Intel CPUs because of security holes, censorship and crippled performance. I am going to do that today. While we only have several thousand users they do CPU intensive work, buy a lot of new CPUs and rent a lot of servers. My small contribution will likely amount to low-mid 6 figures out of Intel pocket in…

Honest question: is AMD any better? Do they somehow manage to avoid Spectre / Meltdown without a slowdown?

AMD are not employing these anti-competitive practices (at least at the moment).

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#225
I'm mildly surprised to do a quick search on this HN thread and not see the word "adhesion" appear. These microcode patches are for a significant design defect in a product that Intel already sold under both explicit and implicit promises and expectations of general functionality. The microcode patches aren't some luxury fully optional deal to make pretty patterns with case LEDs or something, they're a matter of critical safety and failing to install them might even expose downstream users to liability issues were the security problems to ever subsequently be exploited and then cause damage to a 3rd party (or even themselves, cybersecurity insurance is still a pretty new area but one of the few policies I've see had print I understood to be along the lines of "insured is expected to take reasonable precautions staying up to date with known patches"). Furthermore, Intel obviously presents no other options for users, using cryptographic signing to ensure that (even ignoring practical issues) there are zero other options to get microcode from.

At least from my layman's perspective this certainly smells like an absolutely 100% textbook contract of adhesion. It's a "take it or leave it" offer, there is no room for bargaining, the term is far outside of reasonable expectations for the situation, it's simply an entirely one-sided item for the pure benefit of Intel leveraged coercively. In fact I think it may go far enough to hit the doctrine of unconscionability even. All this without even touching on any public interest issues.

I think they should be challenged on this, that benchmarks should be published and Intel told to pound sand. Companies can stick whatever they want in a contract but that doesn't make it enforceable. And while admittedly often that can be quite gray territory and people toss out "not enforceable!!!" on the Internet far, far more often then is justified this particular instance really does look egregious. Yes, normally you can contract away your speech rights, but it's in the process of a real contract, with reasonably equal bargaining positions, proper consideration, etc. I think this goes too far.

Perhaps Intel's real aim though is actually slimier, lots of major review sites depend pretty heavily on access that Intel (and other vendors) offer as well as free/cheap kit and the like which is optional and much easier to yank away at a whim. For those publications this may be a shot across the bow, of the sort "sure, you can challenge this if you want but it's a warning that if you do we can still punish you for it regardless of you winning the case."

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fails the 'reasonable pricing' check. Who's gonna pay 6x of what you pay for a comparable intel system? This is only for the super-enthusiast.

Technology often starts out expensive and enthusiast only, but if Intel keeps throwing these wild punches in every direction, why wouldn't we see a steady migration to alternatives? AMD is definitely benefiting from Intel's recent decisions, I am sure Raptor is also starting to get more business. A few more years of shady Intel decisions combined with sufficient negative press and I am sure the market will gladly dec…

You cannot deliver competitive quality, performance and pricing right away, completely agree. But there's generally a threshold to how much more expensive it can be in the beginning, and more importantly, how much you benefit from it. The problem here is that only few people even understand the problems with what Intel does, and even fewer people care. My games still run fine so why should I care? HN is a real echo chamber in cases like this and easily give a false impression. As you also mentioned, AMD is the only realistic winner from all this, since it's also x86 so you can switch over and everything stays the same. But in general, remember that people are very good at forgetting, and at just accepting that "everything's fucked up" is the new normal. Intel only needs to keep delivering competitive performance and people will keep buying.

I'd really love to see a big shift to a new architecture, RISC V, OpenPOWER etc. get me really excited because as a nerd new technology in general is always interesting, but the above simply is my prediction of the future based on history. I mean, how long ago have the first serious Intel ME vulnerabilities been disclosed? What happened apart from a short shitstorm on tech websites and some small companies offering laptops with crippled down IME that only complete neck beards care about?

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#227
post #183
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But CPU+FPGA will forever be a tiny niche, right? I don't see any path where mainstream programs get a boost from FPGA.

Not at all. Specialized coprocessors are mainstream actually - from network cards offloading to small chip in every iPhone, and for a reason. The obvious way forward is universal specialized coprocessors, reprogrammable for the task(s). Better if tightly integrated with the memory, buses and CPUs. The weak side of FPGA historically is programmability and especially the tools. But since the interest for FPGA is growin…

How is every consumer device with a display "niche"?

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#228
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Before Zen, we all kind of assumed they were so far ahead that AMD were more likely to be out of business before they would ever be a credible threat again. It depends where about on the timeline. AMD's hired of Lisa Su and Jim Keller in 2012, we all thought it was too little too late. Look back at the Roadmap Intel were giving at the time, I used to joke about Tick Tock were like the sound of AMD's death clock. In…

Broadwell and Skylake brings nothing much substantial. Ironically, Broadwell's 128MB L4 cache did bring a substantial performance boost to a whole range of real-world applications, but it seems it's so expensive to manufacture that they've subsequently dropped the feature except for Apple's iMacs and expensive laptops.

Haswell massively improved the branch predictor, which gave a significant IPC boost to many real-world workloads (especially emulation and interpreters).

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#229
post #204

Before Zen, we all kind of assumed they were so far ahead that AMD were more likely to be out of business before they would ever be a credible threat again. I actually thought Intel must have had some tricks up their sleeves in terms of performance gains that we hadn't seen yet, simply because there was no market need to roll them out and they had so many years of coasting on marginal gains. Seeing them taking this s…

>Before Zen, we all kind of assumed they were so far ahead that AMD were more likely to be out of business before they would ever be a credible threat again. It depends where about on the timeline. AMD's hired of Lisa Su and Jim Keller in 2012, we all thought it was too little too late. Look back at the Roadmap Intel were giving at the time, I used to joke about Tick Tock were like the sound of AMD's death clock. In…

> If you loathe Intel after all the lies they have been telling and marketing speaks, you should buy AMD.

> If you love Intel still after all, you should still buy AMD, teach them a painful lesson to wake them up.

But how do I choose which AMD CPU I need ? Back in my youth p4 and athlon were easy to compare (freq., IPS and a modifier because AMD) but now I can't even tell the differences between any i5/3/7 and when I look at AMD names it's as confusing but with a different lingo. I feel the same regarding GPU so maybe I am too old for that now.

Re: Intel Publishes Microcode Patches, No Benchmarking or Comparison Allowed

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot wait until it becomes viable to escape the toxicity of companies such as Intel and Microsoft. This has been "viable" for a long time now. Ignore the FUD and just try it for yourself. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Especially now with Valve's Proton.

I've been watching this very closely. I think this project will finally tip the scales and make it viable for me (I've had problems with many games when I attempted to switch in the past).
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