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Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

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Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#411
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, Unreal Engine 4 charges only 5% gross on revenue exceeding 3,000 USD per quarter. Epic's CEO tweeted about these markets taking 30% where other transaction facilitators only take 2-5%. https://mobile.twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/89831654549... It feels like in tech there are a ton of leech-like companies attempting to leverage their way into middleman positions and then rest on their laurels while…

Calling Apple a transaction facilitator is a ludicrous way to try to downplay what they actually do. They aren’t just a transaction processer, that’s the cheapest and easiest part of their job. They also host petabytes of apps in hundreds of geographically dispersed and localized app stores, and covers all bandwidth for distributing and updating those apps. And unlike google Apple actually reviews every release of ev…

> They also host petabytes of apps in hundreds of geographically dispersed and localized app stores

So they run a CDN. In the US and Europe, Fastly charges [0] a maximum of $0.12/GB. A messaging app like Threema is 41MB and costs 3CHF (~3USD) where I am. That's ~$0.005 for distribution of a $3 app.

For a 4GB app (the largest Apple supports), you're paying $0.48 but you're also usually charging on the order of $20 for the app, so this is ~2.5%.

Actual bandwidth costs much less. You can buy decent transit for 0.17c/Mbps/month [1] ($0.0005/GB if you max the pipe).

> and covers all bandwidth for distributing and updating those apps

Let's say incremental updates cost 5% (~2MB) each time and you send them once a month for 10 years. That's 240MB of extra download, for a total bandwidth of 281MB/user. That's $0.0372/user for a $3 app, just over 1%.

> And unlike google Apple actually reviews every release of every app by hand, keeping huge amounts of malware off customer devices

That primarily benefits Apple. Apple's policies also cost entire classes of apps _100%_ of their revenue, since Apple prohibits them completely.

[0]: https://www.fastly.com/pricing [1]: https://www.ixreach.com/services/promotions/global-10g-trans...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#412
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

I would add: we as a society need to start thinking about how to halt the service-ization of everything. The smartphone is a general purpose handheld computer that's been captured and turned into a rent-extraction device by being re-conceptualized as a "service." And the service-bug is spreading. Laptop and desktop computers are in the crosshairs, as are cars and various home appliances. Do we want to live in a world…

> The smartphone is a general purpose handheld computer that's been captured and turned into a rent-extraction device by being re-conceptualized as a "service."

Services are indisputably a good thing and they are absolutely the way forwards. There is no reason for anybody to own much of anything and with global middle class approaching 4 billion it's simply not possible for the extremely wasteful concept of "ownership" to survive. Metering is the only way forwards besides catastrophe.

> Already, I mistrust non-OSS computing devices with their mystery-meat forced updates and non-removeable apps and barrage of legal agreements.

You've stumbled upon the actual issue which is nothing more than compelled business (in Europe and Asia) and what I guess the US calls a "coercive monopoly" [1]. The fundamental problem with Apple's App Store is that there is no reasonable alternative. Individuals and businesses which purchase IPhone devices are forced to do business with Apple if they want to actually utilize those devices to their full potential. Similarly developers who wish to provide services around IPhones have no choice but to do business with Apple.

> We know how this goes in the case of corrupt illiberal states, but ending up in that same place via a corrupt corporate culture/state is also possible, happening as we speak even, and halting that should be seen as another layer of defense for the liberal order.

Ironically, if you want to see a government who gets this "right" take a look at China. Chinese governments have moved aggressively to prevent monopolies and the laws were modified ten years ago to draw a clear distinction between a market (where all businesses interact freely and there is fair competition) and a platform (where a single business dictates virtually all the economic terms). This, along with the relaxed IP framework, is why the Chinese market is much more competitive and dynamic than anything else going on out there. At this point I don't think anybody seriously expects America's ultra-right-wing Supreme Court to break Apple's monopoly, but earlier this year there were a lot of indicators suggesting that Apple's coercive practices were not welcome [2]. (Though this issue might solve itself if Apple's market share in China continues to plunge.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercive_monopoly

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/business/china-apple-app-...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#413
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

> The platform will never forget, there will be no second chances.

Or worse. This reminded me of this recent comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17694032

The paragraph in question:

> After an agent had been terminated, their punishment points would decay over time until such a time they reached zero (or another configurable threshold depending on how desperate the company was for warm bodies), at which time they would be sent an e-mail to their personal e-mail (which was collected during the application process), inviting them to “re-apply”. Being an early telephony company we also would send them a robo-call with the “good news”. This process was known as a “life-cycle” and it was common in certain labor markets for employees to have many such lifecycles.

Seriously, give it a read and cry, if you haven't...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#414

Microsoft was crucified for having internet explorer as default browser (not banning other browsers). Apple with 45% market share in the US smartphone market faces no issues with banning app store competition (even html5 based stores) Sounds fair

Microsoft had a market share around 95%. Quite a difference there.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#415
I think this is a classic market failure due to network effects/monopoly; one of those cases that could be resolved(?) by looking at the earnings of the company in question.

Are they making a loss. Break even. Small profit. Large profit?

If, after all the creative accounting, they still show a large profit then it certainly must be a monopoly.

Otherwise someone else would come in and offer the same service for less.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#416

I noticed this the other day, I had seen on my desktop that YouTube was £11.99 per month. When I was out, i had forgotten to sync my songs but I wanted music for the day so I went to try YouTube Premium. £15.99 per month. I could have sworn it was £11.99..... I deleted my YouTube app, and signed up for £11.99. Reinstalled my YouTube app and it was Premium. I am being told to "get the app as it is better" and yet evid…

The price increase has nothing to do with if the app is installed or not, just wether you sign up through the app (where Apple takes a cut, usually leading to a price increase) or not. It's the same with most other multi-platform services, never subscribe using iOS apps if signing up through their website is possible.

What is the difference? You have the app, and safari opens up all links in the YouTube app. You get rid of the app, and safari opens the youtube website.

Getting the App costs you a 33% tax over not having the app in this circumstance.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#417
I used to have a Moto G, the fist one with 8GB of memory. This forces you into a strict app diet... And hey, it turns out that many services have nice websites, some even more functional that their app counterparts (i.e. Facebook) and without the tracking (if you so choose) and weird permissions.

By the way, Netflix may complain but they are the most horrible app I known when it comes to requiring Play services and a "normal" Android rom. Oh you have rootless LineageOS with all play services? Still no app for you. Funny thing is it was very easy to get is from apk mirror. Why not from netflix.com/apk? Hmm, perhaps this was their intent thinking about it now...

Anyway, the tax is only a part of the locked ecosystem problem imo.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#418
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

The gig economy is getting unreal. With the silicon valley boom it used to be that you would become a software developer or some IT related profession and you would be almost guaranteed a top of the line paycheck. That paycheck represented almost nothing in terms of costs compared to how well software scales across the board. And yet corporations will find a way to take that away too, make some of the last high-paying jobs turn into a race to the bottom market. And brand it as "innovative" on top of it.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#419
post #192
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple adds no value there Other than inventing the modern phone, writing the operating system and developer tools, running the store, manufacturing the phones people are consuming Amazon's product on and convincing people to buy them...you can argue about what's "fair," but Apple's certainly adding value.

> but Apple's certainly adding value. Do roads add value? Should trucks pay a 30% of their cargo retail price in road tolls? I agree with your point that Apple adds value. I just do not see that as a justification to take a 30% share of all apps that run on their devices.

As trucks account for a high (90%ish) amount of road wear, they actually probably should pay a high fee. Accurate costs might also make the rail freight industry more cost competitive, leading to better market diversity.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#420
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

I would add: we as a society need to start thinking about how to halt the service-ization of everything. The smartphone is a general purpose handheld computer that's been captured and turned into a rent-extraction device by being re-conceptualized as a "service." And the service-bug is spreading. Laptop and desktop computers are in the crosshairs, as are cars and various home appliances. Do we want to live in a world…

>we as a society need to start thinking about how to halt the service-ization of everything.

People don't care unfortunately. Services are convenient and offer a better bang for the buck in the sort term. At some point though you lose your job and your music library is gone, you have nothing to watch because everyone streams and thus the movie/show selling market was never forced to solve it's copyright issues. You have no car because it was leased and you have no place to stay because the landlord kicked you out when you missed a rent( and buying an apartment or a house is crazy expensive across the board for some reason I still don't understand).

>Do we want to live in a world where every device is a black box that's only reparable by "authorized" personnel, where some hobby-level engineering skill won't help you prevent a 1$ dishwasher repair from costing 100$? Where every appliance comes with a plan, favors a "platform" and will make your life a headache if you disagree, serves you but also who knows how many other masters and economic agendas, and inexplicably goes dark because bankruptcy, bugs, hacks, your guess is as good as mine?

We need to find a way to make manufacturing electronics cheap. The cat is out of the bag and electronics and software will become part of everything. Maybe a smart fridge is a stupid idea now but it might make sense in a different context. I think Japan has been big on various home automation for many decades now before sv decided to reinvent the wheel but the cases I read about were much more respecting and user-controlled.

>Constant wariness and justified cynicism are exhausting and dehumanizing and will do their part to sap an entire society. We know how this goes in the case of corrupt illiberal states, but ending up in that same place via a corrupt corporate culture/state is also possible, happening as we speak even, and halting that should be seen as another layer of defense for the liberal order.

There is no liberal order anymore. Have you noticed how everything today is tense? Like every interaction has to be within very narrow and at the same time arbitrary limits? How everything even slightly political turns into a shitshow and not just online. Everyone has to be super careful of his/her personal ratings and there is no room to vent off and do your own thing because if society finds out it will tear you apart.

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