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Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

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Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#381
I remember when software developers enjoyed free markets to sell their products in.

First we’d spend hundreds of thousands of dollars printing manuals and boxes, and duplicating disks. If the release sold well, that would end up costing us less than $10 per unit. If it didn’t sell well, that cost would approach 100% of revenues.

Next, we would neec need to find a way to get our boxes of software into actual stores. The easiest way was to convince someone like Ingram MicroD to distribute our software. Once stocked with Ingram, any store could order our product! That doesn’t mean they did though.

So the next step is to convince stores to stock us. We could hire and send sales staff, or we could pay Ingram to advertise us prominently in their catalogs, or we could even pay big chains to stock us in prominent locations called “end caps”!

Now all we had to do was wait for the money to roll in! And wait was the key phrase, cause even though our contract said 30 day terms, Ingram days were kind of like their version of dog years, or better yet Elon schedules, where everything takes at least twice as long. After 45 days you’d call one Monday, and they’d say oh we don’t cut checks on mondays, only on Fridays. So you call on Friday to find they only cut checks in Wednesdays! Then the next time the darn CFO would be out of town, you can’t get checks signed without the CFO you know. But no worries, Ingram always paid, never in thirty days but usually within 6 months or so.

And they did all of that for “only” a 50% cut of our revenues!

Developers today don’t know how good they have it. For only 30% of revenues (and a $99 annual dev fee) Apple will give you as many marketing pages as you want in their store, will host your apps, and no matter how big they are or how often you update them, and irregardkess of how many download them, Apple pays for all storage and bandwidth costs.

And you not only have access to North American customers, but Apple has international stores localized in dozens of languages you get free access to at the click of a mouse. Do a Spanish version of your app and it’s in dozens of stores for Spanish speaking countries in hours.

And on top of that, Apple provides probably the best payment processing system known to man. It’s easy to sell for one time chatgesmp, subscriptions, by feature, etc. and customers are super comfortable with the App Store because it makes managing their subscriptions or canceling unwanted purchases is super easy.

And even better, Apple tightly vets every app and every update before releasing, which is a big reason why it’s the biggest selling App Store in the world. Customers feel safe downloading your apps from the Apple App Store, which helps sell more if them.

Apple paid developers over $20B the last year. There hasn’t been a software market this lucrative and this easy to get into in the history of the world.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#382
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

Most non game apps shouldn't be apps. They should be web pages. It would be faster development and you wouldn't be dependent on the app stores. A torrent remote app would never be allowed on the IOS app store, but going to https://remote.vuze.com and pairing your Vuze app can't be banned....

Until they start blocking URLs because of... well, they'll find a reason ;)

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My GF and I recently moved from NYC to Los Angeles and an Uber driver once asked her "Are you from NY?", "Yes, why?", "Because your rating is so low and people from NYC usually have really low ratings." We checked her rating and it's 4.5 or so. But it's funny, she looks like a deadbeat here because of more discerning/critical NYC Uber drivers who gave her 4 stars 50% of the time.

Los Angeles has serious grade inflation across the board wrt social ratings. Their yelp reviews are completely unreliable, everything is 4 or 5 stars. I'm used to Chicago where even a great restaurant can have 3 stars because everyone is so picky, and the 4 or 5 stars are reserved for the truly extraordinary.

This is because giving someone less than five stars is a direct threat on their livelihood. Unless I think someone should not be allowed to continue in their line of work, they get five stars.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#384
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the food is the only thing that should matter everyone should be ordering for delivery. The service counts so much as the food in my opinion.

Eh, unless they're shitting on my plate I feel no need to be critical of service at all. Also, it's nice to eat out simply because it's away from your home.

Service is: Bring the right food, bring it on time, bring the check in time, be somewhat friendly, help with strollers/bring a baby chair etc.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#385
post #187

Three thoughts. There is a certain irony at play here, given both Apple and Google's own fights with tax authorities in many jurisdictions (eg the double Irish and the EU, Australian complaints about tax avoidance, agreements about their use of shell companies in the Cayman Islands or other tax havens, etc.). I have always wondered what the real cost is to both Google and Apple in running their App Stores? The 30% fi…

Calculating costs here is tricky. Do you only include the cost for Google running running the Play Store infrastructure itself, or do you also include the costs of developing and running Google Play Services? What about the costs Google has developing Android itself, which is otherwise given away for free?

Good points. Part of the problem with the debate at this point is that there is little to no transparency about any of those costs.

Android is obviously a larger ‘strategic’ play so I would argue that should be excluded and Google Play Services are also likely to either be ‘strategic’ plays (ie Apple offers music, so do we; Customers want movies, let’s offer them too, etc) or potentially revenue positive.

If Google’s and Apple’s accountants can setup magical tax systems across the world - they could also provide some useful data points about the true costs of running their App stores.

As a specific example, I’d be interested to know, what the hosting and bandwidth costs are for the App Stores (likely heavily subsidised given both Apple and Google run cloud platforms including hosting).

At the moment, there is next to no transparency except the “30%” cut and some high-level info in their quarterly financial reports.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Apple a transaction facilitator is a ludicrous way to try to downplay what they actually do. They aren’t just a transaction processer, that’s the cheapest and easiest part of their job. They also host petabytes of apps in hundreds of geographically dispersed and localized app stores, and covers all bandwidth for distributing and updating those apps. And unlike google Apple actually reviews every release of ev…

Apple made $11 billion from apps in 2017. I doubt they spent more than $1B on app distribution. You d have to add research costs to go up to 10%.

I guarantee they spent more.

The host over 2 million apps, in hundreds of geographic locations. With updates, they are distributing billions of releases and updates a year. And some of those apps exceed a gigabyte in size.

Outside of raw bandwidth and storage costs, someone has to run those tens of thousands of servers across the world, and manage development of the distribution software.

Then you need sales and marketing personnel to build and run the App Store, and hundreds of similar staffs to build and manage the hundreds of international stores in dozens of different languages.

Then you need software development teams to build and maintain the - payment processing, including server infrastructure, the iOS, Mac SDKs, the APIs, etc - software distribution and updating infrastructure, from tools to manage thousands of servers, as well as track and report, and more Mac/iOS SDKs and sever APIs. - The App Store itself, with custom app pages, search, advertising, Mobil app versions, web versions, account management, support, etc. - App Submission infrastructure, including XCode, Swift, Automated App Analysis tools, Bitcode, the Bitcode server infrastructure, crash reporting, TestFlight test distributions and infrastructure, developer accounts including security profile generation/management, ItunesConnect account management including sales and legal reporting along with App distribution interface and controls.

And then there is - Sales and marketing costs, advertising, developer co-marketing - Customer support

And finally, developer support. Apple likely has at least a thousand people working in developer support, mostly on app submissions. And they are all in Cupertino, meaning Apple is spending well over $100M a year just on payroll costs for that department alone.

$1B? I’d be surprised if it’s less than triple that. They likely spend close to half a billion on App Store/Developer advertising alone.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#387
"A recent European Union antitrust ruling requires the company to stop automatically installing its app store on Android phones in Europe. (Google is fighting the charges.)"

Wait, are they going after Apple too? Or are they ok because they've locked down their platform 99.999% (assuming there's still some jailbroken ones out there)?

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#388
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam is also adding a lot of value for that rev-share. A social network...kickstart-esque backing of projects...cloud saves...great search and discoverability. There is a reason why developers choose Steam even though they operate on platforms that don't require it.

And mobile stores offer search, promotion, distribution, and analytics.

Search: yes, but to counter that: the App Store shows ads of your competitors ABOVE your own app, even if someone searches for your app by name.

Promotion: only the ones that seem to be successful anyways. Mostly no niche apps

Distribution: yes

Analytics: Not everybody needs this and they're pretty basic, too.

They also introduce hurdles: Rating system (can be easily abused), or in the case of the App Store: review process (sometimes somewhat arbitrary), no insight into payments (you can't even issue a refund).

One service that is indeed quite useful: They handle all payment processing and country's tax. You just get a single payment wired to your bank account. Makes your own taxes a lot easier. This and distribution are probably the biggest benefit for most apps (especially niche apps), but does this justify a 30% cut?

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#389
post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

We engineers could also develop more intelligent and robust rating systems.

Have a look at Steam. Their recent view is brilliant, and they'll flag it for the user if a long time solid title suddenly gets a barrage of negative views.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#390
I'd like to compare the situation to the record industry, where artists usually get something around a measly 10% of the income generated by record sales. Artists are busting their asses of while the record companies are cashing in like never before. And yes, there are some artists that make more money than others, but they still only get a percentage of what their fans really pay them. I understand that they, being record companies or Google Play/App Store, need and rightfully should demand a fee for helping their content providers with a platform for their product. But at the same time, without the content providers, they would be nothing. The music industry has already seen the rise of various indie labels, artists starting their own record companies and such. And although I realize the difficulty in doing something equivalent within the mobile app industry, Google or Apple are already saying that you as a user should only download apps from approved and reliable sources, i.e. Google Play and App Store, I think we will see some sort of similar development. Perhaps companies will start providing app downloads on their own, create their own app store platform etc. Especially since the companies themselves get so little out of making their apps available on Google Play and App Store. They still need to market their apps for example.
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