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Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

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Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#61

Post by throwmex »

donmcronald wrote: post #18
romwell wrote: post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

Allowing the exploitation of foreign workers like that is bad for your country too. I'm Canadian, but some of our big companies use a similar strategy. Imagine being the foreign worker. You know you're being taken advantage of, many locals dislike you, the benefit is temporary, and it's endorsed by the government. It's a smart deal in terms of personal gain, but you're not stupid so you know you're being taken advant…

Isn't it changing in Canada now. Express entry is reeling in talents from US and around the world with its merit based system. LMIA based Temporary skilled foreign worker visa applications are going downhill. The exception there is Quebec which has no clear immigration policy based on skills and companies in Québec are struggling to run business there because of Québec's lack of clear immigration.

As someone who immigrated to Canada from an H1B, I feel the difference in treatment and perception. I can demand fair salary, take promotions, even take vacations without fear. I respect Canada in giving me the opportunity.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#62

Post by somethingwitty1 »

atomical wrote: post #27
cmurf wrote: post #4

I think quite a lot of companies are visa reliant. Amazon's H-1B issuance is up 78%. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/13/h-1b-use-skyrocketed-... Meanwhile there are a bunch of northeast restaurants and crab houses who can't get H-2B seasonal workers at all, and very much need them - they're not getting Americans to do that work. http://www.wboc.com/story/38923157/empty-crab-houses-look-to... Seems like a dispropo…

Why does Amazon need to use H1-B when it can open offices overseas and pay workers low wages?

I've always found working with your team in one location is far easier than when it is split across time zones (or even physical locations in the same time zone). That said, Amazon does hire overseas, a lot: https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=all&cache.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#63

Post by runesoerensen »

dmode wrote: post #59
runesoerensen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually…

You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants, but are still very low paying. I bet the median wage of HR role in San Jose will be much lower

> You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch.

I agree that would be a stretch especially because the yearly H-1B visa cap is 65,000 across all industries.

In any case, even if wages would be a bit higher without foreign labor, Cisco would probably only be responsible for paying at least the market wage for a position at the time the H-1B petition was filed.

> I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants

Just a small nit (because I'm reminded of this every time I enter the US): H-1B is a non-immigrant visa type for temporary workers ;)

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#64

Post by [deleted] »

dmode wrote: post #59
runesoerensen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually…

You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants, but are still very low paying. I bet the median wage of HR role in San Jose will be much lower

[deleted]

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#65

Post by TheBobinator »

romwell wrote: post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

Does Cisco have a responsability to the American public to hire American first and not when it's merely convenient, by whatever metric they decide, for them to do so?

The plain-as-day answer is, the business model of externalizing the costs of nationalism (protection, discounted infrastructure) and technological progress (disruption) only works if the net-benefit of that progress results in a measurable improvement in the standard of living for the majority of society whom have paid the externalization costs.

Otherwise, innovation quite clearly works as an asset-stripping mechanism; a mechanism of enslavement and subjugation.

The correct question to ask: Is Cisco's action, and what the majority of silicon valley is doing, foundationally counterproductive?

A Teacher does not teach the material, they teach the student; their job is to learn how students learn, format the material for them, and provide them with guidance, ultimately teaching them to teach themselves. They must change themselves to change the world around them.

Time and time again, I see clearly highly intelligent people like you, and they make the mistake of agrating people into numbers because they they have not learned stewardship over those less gifted, logic and reason has clouded their ability to see social systems of sacrifice.

And because of that, their designs fail. Over and Over. And they don't know why, or they become superstitious about it.

Hiring H1B's in large numbers, instead of having a scalable internal training program, is a fundamental sign of a failed system at play.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#66

Post by knuththetruth »

im_cynical wrote: post #42
romwell wrote: post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

Ex employee of 5 years here. It was open secret that the system was being abused. What they would do is post a notice of intent to hire an H1B by posting the job listing in break rooms along with requirements that were clearly senior level and included a salary range for the job drastically below market average. No self respecting local would even bother applying. That's how they got away with claiming they couldn't…

The fashion industry has high-turnover and does the same thing with various roles. Companies that are located outside of NYC and LA and don't want to pay competitively can't really hold on to talent, so they post classified ads in local newspapers and get an H1B.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#67

Post by ubernostrum »

grad_ml wrote: post #39

I think this statement is false by nature. If one have secured visa, assuming following law, is something like saying that Cisco have engineers on H1b. Taha, whole world knows that, it's in public domain. This is like saying Google or some other firm is using H1B employee.

The usual critique is that these visa programs were designed to allow companies to hire a person from another country in cases where no US citizen was available (usually because of some particular skill or unusual knowledge required for the job). But companies have learned how to game the system and "prove" that there are apparently zero US citizens qualified for software development jobs, which then absolutely requires importing people who will work for a far lower salary and be tied to that specific job as a condition of being allowed in the US.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#68

Post by chasontherobot »

User23 wrote: post #44
redahs wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is not currently experiencing mass immigration. Its total annual population growth rate including immigration is lower than 1% and has not been this low since the Great Depression. The United States is a relatively lightly populated country per unit of total land area, and many cities in the interior of the country are declining in population despite immigration. Housing prices are inversely correla…

The US will be minority American in 25 years as virtually every news source will gleefully tell you. The foreign migration into the USA is massive and unprecedented in history, except for the original colonization. What you say about housing costs is not wrong, but it’s also very incomplete. Many other factors drive housing inflation, just one example is that mortgages expand the total money supply, resulting in text…

"American" is not a race, what do you mean by that?

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#69

Post by scottmcf »

jimmaswell wrote: post #50
whack wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every company uses tactics like these. And for good reason. Most factors that actually matters in hiring (GPA, college you got the degree from, caliber of your prior companies and work experience, interview performance, general intellectual & problem solving skills) are all banned from consideration when explaining why you didn't hire a local. And once you water down the job-requirements to exclude all of the…

Maybe they should have to make a reasonable effort to train someone before hiring from overseas.

Maybe they should just pay the correct amount for the position, according to the job requirements?

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#70

Post by snambi »

romwell wrote: post #23
saas_sam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What software skills are "not available locally" in Silicon Valley that need to be imported from places like India? No, these are available locally, just not at the rate Cisco wanted to pay. I've worked at many tech cos and this is very common. Companies will post jobs and even sometimes send email blasts to "help find us an Android developer!" but it's all for show in case they get audited -- they have to prove they…

>HA! Not in Bay Area, not for a senior hire. That's a good salary for an engineer that's a few years out of college. Hardly competitive for anything beyond that. I agree; but 1)it's an average figure, and 2)we don't know how many visa-holding employees are senior; perhaps many of them are a few years out of college. As I said, we would need more data to argue either way -- unless you say that people a few years out o…

Please add people who get MS degree as well.
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