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Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

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Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#151

Post by [deleted] »

ppeetteerr wrote: post #98
makecheck wrote: post #32

The 30% cut would have been reasonable after all this time if the platforms were doing anything useful with the money. Instead, we got: - Store APIs that to this day are stupidly complex to get right in all cases, making you wonder why it’s so hard - No support for very common, decades-old pricing schemes like “free demo, then buy” (except through convoluted means) - Stagnant app store designs (esp. Mac, for YEARS) -…

They are doing a ton that is useful: - Taking care of payment processing - Storing the user's credit card information - Providing a ton of pricing options - Providing analytics and crash monitoring tools - Providing deployment tools - Providing development tools (push notifications, regular updates to their platforms, market segmentation, beta releases, etc) - Providing distribution - Creating a market place for the…

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#152

Post by watermelon0 »

throwawaymath wrote: post #129
ksec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

How can you argue that it's not worth "anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%" if there are so many firms willing to pay it? The idea of the fees is not to cover the costs of doing business, it's to turn a (ideally significant) profit. It sounds like your expectation is that a company would not charge as much as the market will accept for a unique product. How much it costs to simply handle e.g. payment processing has rela…

Not sure you can say they are willing to pay it, considering the alternative is not being able to provide the application to iOS/Android users.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#153

Post by shawn »

throwawaymath wrote: post #141
shawn wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inverse question is equally interesting: In a monopoly, how do you determine when to put a stop to it? It's a tough question.

I don't agree with you that Apple or Google are monopolies. I also don't see that what they're doing is anti-competitive. I expect that will be a pretty controversial opinion, but I'm just being honest.

Oh, I probably sounded identical to a certain common pattern. Don't read too much into it. :)

I don't think they're anti-competitive. But they are monopolies.

http://gsl.mit.edu/media/programs/south-africa-summer-2015/m...

https://i.imgur.com/ooJmwsg.png

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#154

Post by dingaling »

rlanday wrote: post #52
cgriswald wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam does not sell me a locked down hardware platform preventing me from buying the software directly from the publisher. Nor does Steam force me to buy DLC through Steam, I am free to buy the DLC directly from the publisher. Steam gets a cut of what I buy from Steam and I am not locked into buying from Steam in order to make my PC useful. Apple sells me a locked down hardware platform that requires me to go through…

> Apple adds no value there Other than inventing the modern phone, writing the operating system and developer tools, running the store, manufacturing the phones people are consuming Amazon's product on and convincing people to buy them...you can argue about what's "fair," but Apple's certainly adding value.

> Other than inventing the modern phone

IBM Simon, 1992.

Applr popularised, they didn't invent. Ironically given the target of their 1984 ad.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#155

Post by throwawaymath »

emsy wrote: post #143
throwawaymath wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you argue that it's not worth "anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%" if there are so many firms willing to pay it? The idea of the fees is not to cover the costs of doing business, it's to turn a (ideally significant) profit. It sounds like your expectation is that a company would not charge as much as the market will accept for a unique product. How much it costs to simply handle e.g. payment processing has rela…

Ideally profits should be incentives for a good service. Instead the profits are a result of the lack of competition because it‘s impossible in iOS‘ case and virtually impossible in Android’s case to compete.

Is that a lack of competition in the actual legal sense of the word? I don't actually know the answer, but my perception is that it's probably not.

Apple does not restrict the ability of another browser to be installed (like Chrome) nor another music service (like Spotify) nor another video service (Amazon). It does charge a high fee for purchases through the App Store platform, but I think reasonable people can disagree about whether or not that's actually anticompetitive.

I think it's incorrect to compare Apple'a high fees to other things that are not app stores, like payment processors. It might be the case that we need more than two mobile operating systems in the market this way Apple and Google have a competitive incentive to reduce their fees. But I think it's fair to mandate a high fee to do things on your operating system if end users and developers will accept it. So far most developers accept it.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#156

Post by sonnyblarney »

There needs to be some kind of class-action or power play movement otherwise - like all the top vendors removing their apps at the same time for a while. No one entity is powerful enough to stand up to them alone. It may take some kind of non-market intervention like legislation which is unlikely to happen in America and I'm not sure that's the fairest avenue either.

Though it may not seem like it - this is related to 'network neutrality' - it's about monopoly/control of one area that's used to monopolize control an adjacent market.

Apple and Google don't want Verizon to charge based on content ... so that Apple and Google can monopolize the entire experience for themselves!

Antitrust is not a new idea, and it's foggy but it may come into play here. It'd be one thing for companies to use their OS control to try to dominate other parts of the experience, but a 'bridge too far' to limit choice. Apple literally wants a 30% cut of the entire digital universe on their platform. This requirement and the limitation that people can't install apps 'not approved' by Apple I think should be addressed by legislation.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#157

Post by muro »

bangonkeyboard wrote: post #33

"App Store fees got you down? Meanwhile at Epic, they lowered their take on the Unreal Marketplace from 30% to 12% and retroactively paid back years of fees. "Epic said this is due to the success of Fortnite. If only Apple and Google had successful products to rely on for income." — https://twitter.com/agilethumbs/status/1029804861477412865

EC told Google that income from PlayStore should be enough for them to make money on Android.

Edit: EC == European Commission

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#158

Post by Steko »

ksec wrote: post #117
ppeetteerr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing a ton that is useful: - Taking care of payment processing - Storing the user's credit card information - Providing a ton of pricing options - Providing analytics and crash monitoring tools - Providing deployment tools - Providing development tools (push notifications, regular updates to their platforms, market segmentation, beta releases, etc) - Providing distribution - Creating a market place for the…

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

> None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%

"Creating a marketplace" can have well over 30% value.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#159

Post by ksec »

I don't have a problem Apple charging game developers 30%, I have a problem with Apple not caring about the gaming development and has comparatively speaking, almost zero contribution to the gaming communities. From improving drivers, middle wares, to that idiotic Game Center.

I don't have a problem with Apple charging Netflix 30% for access, I have a problem with these subscription tax every month that Apple collect and offer absolutely zero value to me as an user. And they then may have use that money to create a show called Planet of the Apps.

I don't have a problem with Apple charging Spotify 30% access, I have a problem with Apple Music being complete piece of crap outside possibly English speaking countries, and some Apple Music features are tied to OS not available to Spotify.

Basically as a user I could care less about where those money goes, as most users don't. But when they discovered they are paying more while being offered an inferior solution, that pill is hard to swallow. And it makes it so much harder coming from Apple, because they keep bragging about how only Apple could do it, how they care.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#160

Post by madrox »

cgriswald wrote: post #45
ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Steam does not sell me a locked down hardware platform preventing me from buying the software directly from the publisher. Nor does Steam force me to buy DLC through Steam, I am free to buy the DLC directly from the publisher. Steam gets a cut of what I buy from Steam and I am not locked into buying from Steam in order to make my PC useful. Apple sells me a locked down hardware platform that requires me to go through…

Steam is also adding a lot of value for that rev-share. A social network...kickstart-esque backing of projects...cloud saves...great search and discoverability. There is a reason why developers choose Steam even though they operate on platforms that don't require it.
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