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The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

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Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#11

Post by throwawaymath »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #10

I definitely have it, or else I wouldn't be a USA freelancer w/ 5+ years php experience (laravel + vue = current stack), but only charge $40 an hour as a freelancer... See, I KNOW I have it, I KNOW I'm worth more, but when I get into negotiations on rates, I freeze up and low ball to get the client rather than just spit out $100/hour take it or leave it... I'm in therapy for anxiety/depression though and focus/concen…

Without trying to trivialize your reasons for going to therapy: I don't think you have imposter syndrome. If you do, something seems incongruent here.

It sounds to me as though you struggle with negotiation due to a lack of confidence. That's not ideal but it can be remedied, and it's a different (better, in my opinion) issue to have. On the other hand I don't really think you can have imposter syndrome while being self-aware about having it. Imposter syndrome is a thought process, not a behavioral pattern. Understanding that you're worth more than what you're charging means you're aware you could improve in negotiation. How would you be aware that you're worth more while also being aware that you believe that you're not worth more?

On a more practical note: I used to be a consultant. I initially struggled with negotiation as well. My advice to you is to practice being flippant with the numbers you provide. I know that sounds cavalier and it's easier said than done, but it can be a very empowering (albeit nerve-wracking) experience to learn how to give ridiculous numbers out. You might be surprised how often they're accepted.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#13

Post by User23 »

And yet all of us have worked with someone who really is out of their league and can't do the work adequately, and those people are often the most arrogant and confident. Some get promoted to management.

There's more going on here, but the behavior can largely be predicted based on the individual's place in the social hierarchy. People that suffer from imposter syndrome inevitably have other characteristic traits and behaviors of low social status.

The most striking example is the sitting US President. If anyone should suffer from imposter syndrome, believing he isn't qualified, it's him. And yet there is absolutely no evidence that he does, quite the opposite in fact. If I had to guess I'd say he thinks he's one of the greatest presidents of all time.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#14

Post by somethingsimple »

I’m always afraid of letting me consider I have it, because I always seem to be put in positions where I’m incompetent.

It’s been a pattern in my career so far, and I don’t know how to break it. I join a new team, learn fast, do good work, everyone loves me. Then management assumes that because I’m good at x, I’m also good at y. So they put me to work on y and I fail miserably. Someone else has to come in and help me/fix it, and now all my credibility is gone.

I try not to beat myself up about it. I consider it a management failure. My current instance of this is management assuming that because I’m a good cider, I’m also good at dealing with infrastructure/operations type stuff. Which is simply not true.

I simply don’t understand their thought process.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#15

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

kylec wrote: post #5

Claiming you have "imposter syndrome" seems to be a popular way to convey modesty or self deprecation. I suspect that many people that claim to have it actually don't.

Think about it like this....

A surgeon might go to school for up to 12 years to acquire all there advanced knowledge.

It seems like after all that time, there jobs should be so complicated that it would be beyond the understanding of a layperson. But when I go to the doctor I expect that person to be able to explain what is wrong with me, and what they are going to do to fix it. So even with 12 years of education, there isn't REALLY a significant barrier of understanding between the average adult an the doctor.

Now take a I.T. worker who has a 6 month degree from a technical college. He may be able to set up an intranet for the office. But could he explain the difference between a local network, and the wider internet, how the data is processed, and what a webpage is made of, in a way that a layperson could really understand without prior knowledge?

Programming quickly takes people into the realm where intuitive knowledge is of little help. Its very easy to get lost, and even to a programmer who does PHP, certain things with JavaScript can feel like magic.

What I'm saying is that it is a rough environment, and feeling Impostor Syndrome is probably really common, and should be expected in this field. I think in many ways it gets worse the more advanced you become in a specific domain.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#16

Post by gremlinsinc »

throwawaymath wrote: post #11
gremlinsinc wrote: post #10

I definitely have it, or else I wouldn't be a USA freelancer w/ 5+ years php experience (laravel + vue = current stack), but only charge $40 an hour as a freelancer... See, I KNOW I have it, I KNOW I'm worth more, but when I get into negotiations on rates, I freeze up and low ball to get the client rather than just spit out $100/hour take it or leave it... I'm in therapy for anxiety/depression though and focus/concen…

Without trying to trivialize your reasons for going to therapy: I don't think you have imposter syndrome. If you do, something seems incongruent here. It sounds to me as though you struggle with negotiation due to a lack of confidence. That's not ideal but it can be remedied, and it's a different (better, in my opinion) issue to have. On the other hand I don't really think you can have imposter syndrome while being s…

The imposter part is I don't feel I'm as 'good' as that other guy who's making 100..maybe I don't know everything htey know..I'm not the best at super complicated algorithms or math, but I can google this shit out of stack overflow and solve 95% of all issues I've ever had. That's what kind of knocks my confidence down a little bit.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#17

Post by jboy55 »

User23 wrote: post #13

And yet all of us have worked with someone who really is out of their league and can't do the work adequately, and those people are often the most arrogant and confident. Some get promoted to management. There's more going on here, but the behavior can largely be predicted based on the individual's place in the social hierarchy. People that suffer from imposter syndrome inevitably have other characteristic traits and…

That there are those who can BS their way to success doesn't mean there are others who underestimate their abilities and hide. There aren't even just these 2 categories, if you look at those who BS, there are those who are aware of their inadequacies and those who aren't.

If you subdivide those who are aware of their inadequacies, there are those who just don't care and those who use the BS as a screen so they won't get found out. Which brings us back to the start.

Understanding the motivations of an individual and understanding your own motivations, can help you manage developers and help you self-improve.

As a manager, understanding impostor syndrome has allowed me to encourage developers who are hiding before their hiding causes them to not report a production issue they're afraid they'll get fired for. Its also helped me understand when individuals need extra encouragement, so that they try to reach out to others for help.

So just because there are counter examples, doesn't mean its not worth understanding.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#18

Post by User23 »

jboy55 wrote: post #17
User23 wrote: post #13

And yet all of us have worked with someone who really is out of their league and can't do the work adequately, and those people are often the most arrogant and confident. Some get promoted to management. There's more going on here, but the behavior can largely be predicted based on the individual's place in the social hierarchy. People that suffer from imposter syndrome inevitably have other characteristic traits and…

That there are those who can BS their way to success doesn't mean there are others who underestimate their abilities and hide. There aren't even just these 2 categories, if you look at those who BS, there are those who are aware of their inadequacies and those who aren't. If you subdivide those who are aware of their inadequacies, there are those who just don't care and those who use the BS as a screen so they won't…

I absolutely agree, I just presented two poles, I figured it was obvious it's a continuum and that there are other dimensions as well.

Most programmers have relatively low social status, and exhibit the thought processes and behaviors thereof. You may not think of it in those terms, and that doesn't matter, as long as you pragmatically understand these typical behavior and thought patterns, which it sounds like you do. For what it's worth, the fear of ostracism you describe interfering with reporting issues is a characteristic low status fear. High social status individuals don't fear ostracism, they do the ostracizing.

Re: The Fallacy of Imposter Syndrome

#19

Post by zaphod12 »

somethingsimple wrote: post #14

I’m always afraid of letting me consider I have it, because I always seem to be put in positions where I’m incompetent. It’s been a pattern in my career so far, and I don’t know how to break it. I join a new team, learn fast, do good work, everyone loves me. Then management assumes that because I’m good at x, I’m also good at y. So they put me to work on y and I fail miserably. Someone else has to come in and help me…

Apple or Pear?

Sorry, but seriously, I've been trying to work on this, as well. I don't know your exact situation, but I've found a lot of this comes down to being able to have the confidence to tell your boss "No, I don't think I should be working on that, for X, Y, Z reasons."

There are shit bosses out there, who will still blame you if they put you in a bad situation and it goes bad, but the best you can do is be upfront that you do not believe this situation is set up for success and how it could be improved.

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