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While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

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Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#21

Post by geoka9 »

nostromo wrote: post #6
Analemma_ wrote: post #2

The air quality index in Seattle is 185 right now, which is unheard of; I could barely see the sun yesterday. Last year there was extreme air pollution due to wildfire smoke for the first time that I can remember, and I thought then maybe it was a anomalous event, but now that it's twice in two years it's probably time to think of this as the new normal. And as much as I want to blame politicians as an easy target, i…

Most scientists agree that the uptick in serious fires in the west is primarily from decades of bad forrest management, not climate change. Climate change obviously plays a role, but it's not the primary driver. I think some activist groups and the media are purposefully muddying the water on this issue. http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wi... http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-wash…

> Climate change obviously plays a role...

FWIW, here in BC the 3 summers that we had fires coincided with the record beating heat.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#22

Post by gthaman »

root_axis wrote: post #12

It's not just politicians; the citizenry does not really care and many are openly hostile to the idea of taking firm steps to reduce emissions since that has an economic cost and they view the economic cost as a bigger threat than whatever impact emissions have on the environment.

The citizenry in the USA (im assuming you are being specific to) are a good deal worse off than in the 1950s in regard to household families and being overtly manipulated and jerked around in regards to the political process with whatever little time they have to engage with it.

The governments (its actors, known or unknown) are the ones with considerable resources and power consolidated in a few hands and intelligence agencies leaders who write books about deceiving their own people saying "we'll know our job is complete when everything the american people believe is a lie".

USA is mired in military action in 76 countries that we know of - USA was at war for every single day of all 8 years of Obama's presidencies - Drone Strikes, Mass Heroin overdoses, San Francisco homeless & human feces poop map's but we finally got those plastic straws replaced with good old american democracy and know how.

What a contrast. What prioritizing.

With every passing day, more and more people are starting to realize it's not ineptitude, it's deceit. And the more heed paid to the government, the more reliance on and guidance from the government - the worse.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#23

Post by lifeformed »

nostromo wrote: post #6
Analemma_ wrote: post #2

The air quality index in Seattle is 185 right now, which is unheard of; I could barely see the sun yesterday. Last year there was extreme air pollution due to wildfire smoke for the first time that I can remember, and I thought then maybe it was a anomalous event, but now that it's twice in two years it's probably time to think of this as the new normal. And as much as I want to blame politicians as an easy target, i…

Most scientists agree that the uptick in serious fires in the west is primarily from decades of bad forrest management, not climate change. Climate change obviously plays a role, but it's not the primary driver. I think some activist groups and the media are purposefully muddying the water on this issue. http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wi... http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-wash…

The idea that it's the "environmentalists' fault" is backwards though. Wildfires were poorly understood earlier in the century and it made sense to suppress them all. Environmentalists were advocating since the 20's for allowing controlled natural fires. It wasn't until some bad fires in the 80's when proper policies were finally put into place.

The consequences of bad forest management from earlier decades will still play out for a while longer, but now that the correct policies are in place, it will cease to become an excuse, while the consequences of climate change are only going to worsen. Forests have been increasingly drier and hotter. Logging activity has cut down the most fire resistant trees and replaced it with flammable young ones. Trump suggests to increase logging and blame the liberals. When politicians blame forest management from a century ago, it is an argument in bad faith, as a way to ignore the myriad impacts of climate change. We should be constantly improving our forest management, yes, but it's something already being worked on, while there is so much resistance to policies to reduce climate change.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#24

Post by whatwow »

gthaman wrote: post #22
root_axis wrote: post #12

It's not just politicians; the citizenry does not really care and many are openly hostile to the idea of taking firm steps to reduce emissions since that has an economic cost and they view the economic cost as a bigger threat than whatever impact emissions have on the environment.

The citizenry in the USA (im assuming you are being specific to) are a good deal worse off than in the 1950s in regard to household families and being overtly manipulated and jerked around in regards to the political process with whatever little time they have to engage with it. The governments (its actors, known or unknown) are the ones with considerable resources and power consolidated in a few hands and intelligen…

The main problem in the US is that corporations and the wealthy have used populism to wage war on government. Thomas Frank's work on 'populist pro-business conservatism' is the reference on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... They try to get citizens to hate the government so they can shrink it and cut taxes on themselves. They use disinformation to do so.

The main deceit comes from right-wing populist disinformation.

You can also read Thomas Piketty on how wealth inequality allows the very wealthy to spend money to influence politics. In the US, that's taken the form of anti-government disinformation.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#25

Post by sebazzz »

Zealotux wrote: post #13

This is the main reason I'm more than skeptical of our ability to even limit the effects of climate change in a foreseeable future, I'll admit it's a cynical view, but even if tomorrow every world leaders agreed that climate is indeed our top priority it'd still be a challenge to tackle it. Instead of that we have endless debates, as if we had time for partisanship, and short-sighted "patching" solutions. I've been t…

In the end everything comes down on money, especially in the USA where the election system depends so much on the candidates getting enough (mostly corporate) donations (or friendly bribing, however you want to call it).

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#26

Post by watmough »

We are already suffering from severe austerity after the collapse in 2008. Pay for the bottom 70% of people in the Western World falls further and further behind.

The present political mess, including in the US and in the UK, and across Europe is clear fall-out from these problems.

In this context, imposing further high-taxes to restrict energy use is political suicide, and simply won't happen.

In the longer-term, moving to wind and solar will help, especially as energy storage technologies improve. Countries such as Spain and Portugal are showing us the way in this respect.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#27

Post by sebazzz »

This makes you think that maybe not individual humans, but a human society is destined to cause enough damage to eventually eradicate itself.

The problems we cause "take too long" to become an problem in the influencial lifetime of the most powerful people in our society, so it is always the problem of someone else until it is too late.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#28

Post by candiodari »

sebazzz wrote: post #25
Zealotux wrote: post #13

This is the main reason I'm more than skeptical of our ability to even limit the effects of climate change in a foreseeable future, I'll admit it's a cynical view, but even if tomorrow every world leaders agreed that climate is indeed our top priority it'd still be a challenge to tackle it. Instead of that we have endless debates, as if we had time for partisanship, and short-sighted "patching" solutions. I've been t…

In the end everything comes down on money, especially in the USA where the election system depends so much on the candidates getting enough (mostly corporate) donations (or friendly bribing, however you want to call it).

And in China, which is supposedly different, the situation is 100x worse ...

But thanks for the comment ... It clearly illustrates that plenty of pro-global-warming people don't care about global warming except as a way to get their will done on other issues, in this case campaign financing.

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#29

Post by root_axis »

gthaman wrote: post #22
root_axis wrote: post #12

It's not just politicians; the citizenry does not really care and many are openly hostile to the idea of taking firm steps to reduce emissions since that has an economic cost and they view the economic cost as a bigger threat than whatever impact emissions have on the environment.

The citizenry in the USA (im assuming you are being specific to) are a good deal worse off than in the 1950s in regard to household families and being overtly manipulated and jerked around in regards to the political process with whatever little time they have to engage with it. The governments (its actors, known or unknown) are the ones with considerable resources and power consolidated in a few hands and intelligen…

You sound like you have an axe to grind. What's your point? Obama waged wars, thus it makes sense that people dismiss the fact that emissions are destroying the environment?

>the more heed paid to the government, the more reliance on and guidance from the government - the worse

What does this even mean? Are you ideologically opposed to mandating seat belts and fire codes and that kind of thing or are you only talking about climate change when you say "the more heed paid to the government, the more reliance on and guidance from the government - the worse."?

Re: While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

#30

Post by Bertio »

quacked wrote: post #10
nostromo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most scientists agree that the uptick in serious fires in the west is primarily from decades of bad forrest management, not climate change. Climate change obviously plays a role, but it's not the primary driver. I think some activist groups and the media are purposefully muddying the water on this issue. http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wi... http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-wash…

I agree that from what most scientists are saying, that sounds like the availability of fuel; but could climate change be responsible for the unusually hot and dry conditions?

Climate change is responsible for the increase in temperatures which lead to an increase in lightening. Climate change is also responsible for the wet conditions in the spring creating additional fuel later in the summer.
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