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Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

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Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#31

Post by j45 »

kowdermeister wrote: post #13
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

I agree with some of this but I get the sense you may not have been around for flash and may be just echo chambering popular commentary without context or first hand experience:

1) The HTML spec at the time flash rose could do nothing of what it could today. Flash, applets delivered - relatively speaking. They didn't 100% hit the one code base that works the same everywhere promise, but came close. Maybe webassembly will lick that problem.

2) HTML interpretation has be ever been consistent between browsers. Respectfully, ie6 was smooth sailing. I'd advise studying life around ie3-4.

3) When Flash fell out of favor thanks to Steve Jobs, Flash Lite ran already, just fine on a lot of phones. It was used on a lot of devices quietly and may very well have been the android of its day. It was just a personal move. Steve Jobs also locked down the iPhone around that time (no app store) at the time.

The "future", html5 was not ready at that time. The web was held back and suffered for a number of years while there wasn't a viable alternative to flash and HTML5/JS still needed to mature and be ready to go.

The dangerous thing about saying html has successfully replaced the past is, we're doomed to repeat the past if we don't understand it due to hubris.

4) Every tech has contributed something valuable. Flash caused me more grief than I ever care to get into.

Flash type browser plugins helped deliver experiences that nothing else could for a very long time, and frankly when the html spec didn't have the foresight, or the capabilities in browsers.

5) Flash saw the value of basing their entire scripting language on actionscript, which is ECMAscript, which is Javascript... more than a decade before anyone thought of using Javascript for building apps.

6) Today's practice of building apps in Javascript in part is inspired outright from what Flash could let a developer do.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#32

Post by xigma »

kowdermeister wrote: post #27
xigma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those don't fill the same void at all, you need tons of code to do something useful with those, all of which needs to be downloaded, compiled and executed. Show me the library using WASM/WebGL that loads as quickly as SVG or Canvas content.

http://www.adultswim.com/etcetera/elastic-man/ 619KB in total, 362KB wasm binary Edit: Three.js is such a library with qualities you described: https://threejs.org/examples/#webgl_postprocessing_dof

That's not a library, that's a demo and it takes several seconds to load, just like a flash applet would.

I'm aware of minimalist things that can put stuff on-screen instantly, but not of something that's a fleshed out solution like SVG or Canvas that still loads instantly (like SVG or Canvas).

Edit: I'm sorry, my brain was still in 2d/Canvas/SVG/Flash land, you were talking about 3D stuff all along. You're right threejs stuff can load quickly, shaders can become a bottleneck though. I was thinking of a library that basically does "Flash Lite" with good performance and yet remains competitive with Canvas/SVG content in terms of load time. I'm not aware of such a solution, but I'd be glad to learn whether it now exists.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#33

Post by j45 »

xigma wrote: post #8
GijsjanB wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euh... Yeah? Shoehorning SVG into 3D models ought to be slow. Manipulating DOM nodes for animation has it's limits. If you want 3D perf in the browser, use WebGL. The canvas can be quite fast if used right, but again, it's not the right tool for every job.

The problem is, the right tool does not exist on the Web. WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. Also, just to get it to do something requires a lot more expertise and code. Would this project have worked out better on Canvas? Yes, most certainly, but some people have to find out the hard way.

Hoping WebAssembly will eventually be in a position to help.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#34

Post by xigma »

kowdermeister wrote: post #30
xigma wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course I have no idea, I'm only following the development of web technologies since IE6. You followed other people doing the development at great expense. You're in no position to evangelize anything. > Just pick a graphics library and you'll be fine if you want to move vector stuff around. If you miss the flash IDE, then it still exists and can export to HTML5 standards. Hahahaha, yeah please use it . Please, I…

I should have said developed as well (I thought that implies it), but your head is too deeply buried in the sand to maintain a conversation. I did use many graphics libraries before, thanks, they are fine.

I have no idea what exactly you did, but I can't fathom how you would form such opinions from hands-on experience with both technologies.

You say things like "just export to HTML5 from Adobe Animate/Flash", but if you had actually used that, you would probably tell people to stay away from it, or at least acknowledge the caveats.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#37

Post by scriptproof »

xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

> It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly

SVG is not a part of HTML 5, it is older, while Canvas actually is, and Canvas is as fast as the now defunct Flash. Maybe applying the right technology to a problem would solve the speed issue...

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#38

Post by kowdermeister »

j45 wrote: post #31
kowdermeister wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

I agree with some of this but I get the sense you may not have been around for flash and may be just echo chambering popular commentary without context or first hand experience: 1) The HTML spec at the time flash rose could do nothing of what it could today. Flash, applets delivered - relatively speaking. They didn't 100% hit the one code base that works the same everywhere promise, but came close. Maybe webassembly…

I don't disagree with any of your points, these do provide the necessary insight of the two platforms. I was around when flash became a big thing, though never really developed in it deeply.

IE3-4 was probably nightmare to work with :)

> The dangerous thing about saying html has successfully replaced the past is, we're doomed to repeat the past if we don't understand it due to hubris.

I feel we will repeat some of the mistakes thanks to webassembly, but I'm not saying it shouldn't be the direction we are heading to. Luckily thanks to the open nature of developing these specs the process is more balanced between parties than ever.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#39

Post by hnqwereader »

xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

You have earned neither my respect nor sympathy in this matter. At the risk of sounding rude, your words are farts in the wind. You do not seem to possess the insight and experience required to pass good judgement; in fact, your position seems based on emotional rather than rational and educated grounds. You pursue a zealous agenda, and I shall have none of it.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#40

Post by sbarre »

xigma wrote: post #9
sbarre wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, WebGL and other open browser standards have come a long way and do things now that I don't think were ever possible in Flash. When done right (for example: http://awards.paris/new-micra-experience/ ) 3D in the browser can be impressive.

Flash had a 3D API (Stage3D) seven years ago, which was quite similar to WebGL. It wasn't used much, because Flash was already on its way out.

I remember seeing 3D in Flash, but it never had the equivalent performance of WebGL..

Although maybe that's just a result of computing power and GPU progress..

Also WebGL has been around at least that long, if not longer..

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