Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#141

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #126

Shish2k wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where they're getting those numbers from, as I didn't spend anywhere near that long preparing o_O If it was rephrased as "successful candidates will have spent an average of 10-15 hours writing code over the past week" (ie, just working your regular day job counts as "preparation", since you're flexing your coding muscles), that sounds more believable...

Nope. It's definitely interview specific prep. Read /r/cscareerquestions/ to get an idea of the levels of prep that many candidates go through. Not everyone needs that level of prep - especially if they're interviewing candidates at their current job. (No better way to see how not to fail by seeing endless failures) People prepping 100+ hours for interviews at these big tech companies is completely common. After all,…

It might be a good tradeoff for the individual candidate, but it’s a terrible practice for the hiring company. It’s like hiring a physicist by giving them a pop quiz on quantum electrodynamics.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#142

Post by paulie_a » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

iaw wrote: post #60

icedchai wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but totally unenforceable... It's a non-issue. Developers are not slaves, and you cannot prevent them from doing outside work while looking for other jobs.

It's a double red flag: 1) If a potential hire is willing to violate their current employment contract they'll be willing to violate any contract you have with them. 2) If a company is happy to trounce into a legal gray area because it's "unenforceable" it may indicate some ethical questions about their leadership.

It's a non flag. Personally I don't even think about a trivial employment contract. They are basically boilerplate garbage akin to a EULA. Sure I'll sign it and then ignore it. The only time I was called out on an employment contract I very diplomatically told them to fuck off. And that was the end of it.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#143

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

yen223 wrote: post #131

pmiller2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name and shame. This is disgusting.

Bearing in mind we're only hearing one side of the story, of course

Assuming, in good faith, that the poster is telling the truth, either the company lied and the homework project wasn’t that good, or they were more interested in whiteboard hazing and the project didn’t mean very much. What’s more like real software engineering: writing code on the spot, on a whiteboard, in front of people; or writing code at home, which you can then have a conversation about? A sane hiring process would put more weight on one than the other, and this company obviously wasn’t sane.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#144

Post by wpasc » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:18 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #57

ryandrake wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the homework project is usually followed by an in-person whiteboard hazing, which nullifies those benefits. I recently interviewed with a well known tech mini-giant who admitted that my homework assignment was among the best they’ve received, but still flunked me based on the in-person slugfest so YMMV.

Name and shame. This is disgusting.

May be an NDA issue

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#145

Post by grigjd3 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

I have a four year old. I research a company, try to determine what tools they use and architecture they might be employing. I research what people are paid there. If requiring a move, I do research on the location. This takes lots of time. The more of my time that is taken up, the less likely I am to bother. The position of the company may well be they aren't interested in someone who'll not keep jumping through more hoops and if that's their position, then it's fine. I likely don't want to work there. I'd likely be happier at a company that respects my time.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#146

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #143

yen223 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bearing in mind we're only hearing one side of the story, of course

Assuming, in good faith, that the poster is telling the truth, either the company lied and the homework project wasn’t that good, or they were more interested in whiteboard hazing and the project didn’t mean very much. What’s more like real software engineering: writing code on the spot, on a whiteboard, in front of people; or writing code at home, which you can then have a conversation about? A sane hiring process w…

I won’t name but it wasn’t shameful. They ended up looking for someone with experience more balanced between web services and embedded devices, and my background was very focused on embedded. Had they gone purely by the homework, they might not have gotten the best candidate.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#147

Post by justinpombrio » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

shady-lady wrote: post #140

justinpombrio wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(c) and (d) are sensible suggestions, but I've got to question your (a) and (b). It sounds like you don't think much of testing, if you're expecting tests to be handed to you. Testing is hard! Writing good test cases can be as hard as writing the code itself. If your tests are inane, then you're going to catch the easy bugs and miss all the hard ones. And when on Earth do you get clear and detailed instructions on wh…

> It sounds like you don't think much of testing, if you're expecting tests to be handed to you Should have been clearer They should have tests to cover their code (not the code I'm going to right).. This cuts down on me adding testing libs needed, any setup, and laying down a pattern for their expectations(wrt tests). With expectation dev would add tests to cover their code. > And when on Earth do you get clear and…

Ah, that all makes a lot more sense :-)

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#148

Post by JustMatthew » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #11

The title is a little click-baitey, because it suggests full on assault on homework. The actual post is more measured in its criticisms, but basically the idea is: don't use homework as a cop-out for not having a good interview process, and thereby likely wasting everyones time. Personally I like homework, because it allows me to show my strengths (actually writing code that is solid) without being "under the gun" in…

Spot on daenz. As with everything, as long as people (if we can call those who work in HR people - see: 'note' below) allow consideration and thoughtfulness to guide their policies and practices, things will usually be agreeable for all involved.

Speaking from experience, shooting 1~2 very detailed hypothetical situations (i.e. 'homework') to a candidate 1 hour prior to their interview and asking them to think of responses to a few 'hard questions' that they will be asked to 1) answer and 2) explain their reasoning during the interview tends to work well. This usually reduces candidate anxiety, helps the evaluating committee get a better look at the candidate's approach to problem solving and validates (or not) their previous experiences, and improves the flow and time management of interview itself.

Note: I'm a senior recruitment manager within the corporate HR Team of a Korean Engineering & Construction firm

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#149

Post by xenihn » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 12:39 AM UTC

My biggest problem with homework assignments is that they measure how much time you're able to dedicate to the assignment more than anything else.

Even with disclaimers like "limit yourself to x hours" or "this shouldn't take more than x hours", some candidates will still spend way more time than that on it.

Employers end up comparing assignments with 200%+ of the "expected" time spent versus people who actually adhered to the timebox. If you're someone who can only dedicate 3 hours in total, whether or not you're in the running might depend on how many other candidates can spend 10+ for perfection or going the extra mile.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#150

Post by icedchai » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 12:42 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #138

icedchai wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Side-work permit"? Is that actually a thing?

I don't know if that's a thing per se, but my former employer (Fortune 500 non-FAANG) quite definitely claimed any code I wrote during my employment whatsoever. I did one time formally ask (just to see what would happen) whether I could volunteer at the Red Cross, which demanded I sign a boilerplate intellectual property agreement saying anything I made as a volunteer belonged to them. The letter of my employment agr…

I find it is often better to seek forgiveness than ask permission in these matters.