Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#121

Post by gpm » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #99

netaustin wrote: post #12

My company, a fully remote consulting firm, uses test projects for some candidates whose skills we cannot fully evaluate using the code samples they have submitted. We only use test projects under conditions designed to skirt the clear pitfalls mentioned in this article. - We pay all candidates for the test project, whether they pass or fail. The original article did not mention paying for homework, which we conclude…

It'd be interesting to see paying candidates for there time during an interview process to be used as a form of money laundering... "So please explain to me what you did to attract 121,498 applications for this job, the reasoning behind paying $500 to each & every applicant for the the time they spent interviewing, and why each applicant has a name like John Doe1, John Doe2, John DoeN, etc."

This seems like a method for anti-money laundering? Taking money that you already legitimately hold and turning it into money that you can't explain. I'm not sure I see the use.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#122

Post by slivym » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #28

I had a friend that did an interview homework assignment, was declined for the job, then found out that they used his assignment's code in production through a friend that already worked at the company. While I'll admit that this is atypical, it seems like something a more nefarious company could abuse.

I can't help but think that candidate should feel lucky to have escaped that car crash. Think about how hard up your company would have to be to ship code that someone else has written with no warranty, no support and not even the knowledge that their code would go into production. Just yuck!

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#123

Post by perl4ever » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

I have only had one experience with a "homework assignment" and I liked it. But the end of the process was coding during the in-person interview, so doing well on the homework availed nothing. It seemed like a disconnect in the process.

In looking for an employer, I think I might like to filter out anyone who particularly dislikes or does not value homework and/or Fermi problems.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#124

Post by llimllib » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

> And that's the problem: it's free. Interviews have a nice limiting function; if it's a waste of the candidate's time, then it's a waste of the company's time. Not so with homework assignments.

The company I work at's primary screener is homework, and it takes us a ton of time and effort to grade homeworks, this argument does not make any sense.

https://adhocteam.us/2018/02/26/why-we-use-homework-to-recru...

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#125

Post by modells » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

There was a SF startup with an obnoxious, high-density open-floorplan (ie a narrow table down a long corridor like a bad library with the panopticon of managers watching) that tried this bullshit with me. They didn't even look at it, a sample of how Puppet works. They asked about MySQL architectures for scaling reads, writes, HA and backups, I provided clear answers to all of them while they made all sorts of snide, unprofessional remarks that weren't based in facts. Overall, they were incredibly rude, dismissive, inhuman, self-aggrandizing and arrogant muppets. They even had the gaul to call me up for another interview later after previously literally pushing me out the door. As I went independent, I let their HR and recruiter know with some actionable feedback: "Please convey this message to (shall go nameless hiring manager): 'Fuck you. (middle finger). Please go fuck yourself.'" They deserved chewing-out but they weren't worth my time.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#126

Post by bradlys » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:26 PM UTC

Shish2k wrote: post #96

rabidrat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Facebook recruiter told me that "successful candidates spend an average of 10-15 hours preparing"...for a 45 minute phone screen. For the onsite you're expected to spend a few weeks reading CtCI and working through the practice problems.

I wonder where they're getting those numbers from, as I didn't spend anywhere near that long preparing o_O If it was rephrased as "successful candidates will have spent an average of 10-15 hours writing code over the past week" (ie, just working your regular day job counts as "preparation", since you're flexing your coding muscles), that sounds more believable...

Nope. It's definitely interview specific prep.

Read /r/cscareerquestions/ to get an idea of the levels of prep that many candidates go through. Not everyone needs that level of prep - especially if they're interviewing candidates at their current job. (No better way to see how not to fail by seeing endless failures)

People prepping 100+ hours for interviews at these big tech companies is completely common. After all, spending 100 hours to get 100k+ more comp is a pretty good tradeoff. It's just sad when you do all that prep but fail anyway.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#127

Post by xexers » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

> "Have a high "pass" rate. If 90+% of candidates aren't progressing past the homework, you might have an abuse problem. In an abuse problem, companies are giving homework to candidates who are unlikely to make it. Figure out why you're giving too many poor fits homework, or figure out why good fits aren't doing well."

That sounds crazy to me. Both from an employer and employee standpoint... If that's the case, it's a waste of time. Why have a test that almost everyone passes?

I've given homework like this before and our pass rate was about 40%.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#128

Post by User23 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

This is a great example of skin in the game affecting behavior.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#129

Post by perl4ever » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #55

chaddattilio wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya I agree, I was all ready to blast it but then realized it had a couple good pointers in the case that you are gonna offer homework. I do disagree with the premise though. As someone who's worked in the tech field for 15+ years and has been on plenty of interviews, I for one would much rather do a short homework assignment than have to stand in front of a few people and white board shit in real-time. Here are reaso…

Unfortunately the homework project is usually followed by an in-person whiteboard hazing, which nullifies those benefits. I recently interviewed with a well known tech mini-giant who admitted that my homework assignment was among the best they’ve received, but still flunked me based on the in-person slugfest so YMMV.

I had much the same experience earlier this year, probably with a different company. I think that maybe interview processes are sometimes created via a tug of war between different groups, and to function at all, the people who will be working with a new hire have to have a veto at the end. So you may start out talking to senior people elsewhere that are paddling the boat in a completely different direction.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#130

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 10:35 PM UTC

mysterypie wrote: post #111

If there really is a developer shortage that we're always hearing about, then why don't more developers say "f. you" and walk away from homework assignments, 5-round interviews, cubicle farms instead of offices, etc. It would be a self-correcting problem -- companies that wanted good candidates would stop doing this shit. The only explanation I can come up with is that the developer shortage doesn't exist. Maybe it's…

Because ultimately the number of people who get really upset by interview process is small. Developers largely care about being paid large sums of money. Issues like open office design and take home work are tolerable when you are paid 300k.