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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

marzell wrote: post #199
prolikewh0a wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.

Involuntary servitude is part of the legally-defined condition of imprisonment, and is consequently part of a sentence to prison as much as “confinement to a cell” and “being subjected to a prison dress code” and “being subject to prison lockdown procedures”. The individual elements that are associated with prison aren't enumerated in the sentence, but they are not separated from it and therefore illegal as not specifically included in the sentence.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#202

Post by komali2 »

woah wrote: post #156
alpha_squared wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in th…

What are you talking about? > In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Seems like what they were saying fits well with this.

Well then we're all slaves to our stomachs because if we don't work, we don't eat, we don't eat, we die.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#203

Post by randomdata »

wongarsu wrote: post #153
ryandrake wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes that the goal of prisons is to keep their customers from returning to prison.

It is clearly the government's responsibility to align the prison's incentives with the best outcome for society. That includes people not reoffending. You are right that currently the US fails in this regard, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.

I would have said that the responsibility of government is to act on behalf of the people. The people may have different ideas than what is technically the best outcome for society.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#204

Post by cmurf »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

American voters are chock full of paternalistic bullshit. They consistently vote for retribution, and the absolute cheapest way to house prisoners, and give them cheap public defenders. Voters consistently consider white collar crime as relatively benign with sentences below the sentencing guidelines; whereas non-violent drug crimes (let alone violent crimes) consistently at the highest range of sentencing guidelines.

It is a society that deeply believes in retribution for "lower class" crimes and slap on the wrist for "high class" crimes. I don't like it, but I absolutely see it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#206

Post by WtfRuSerious »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #125
fipple wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

You're totally right. What better way to show inmates the virtue of living an upright life than to treat them just like real people. If you pay them 85c/hr they'll resent The Man even harder and see a life of crime as the only way they'll ever succeed. Pay them for their hardwork and they'll learn they can succeed in life by hardwork, determination and honesty, all virtues that prison _should_ be about instilling.

I'm going to use a alt account for this ( for obvious reasons )...

I disagree with this sentiment, I was ( some 20 years ago ) incarcerated for drug dealing. I broke the law ( much more than I was caught and prosecuted for btw... ) and I deserved what I got, probably more.

For the record, being in prison sucks... it's SUPPOSED to suck, it's supposed to make you regret what you did to get put in there and actively look forward to the day of your release, it's not supposed to be a cushy summer camp for confused snowflakes... if it was, it WOULD NOT rehabilitate errant individuals like myself. The fact that it did suck SO BAD, is STILL some 20 years later FRONT-AND-CENTER in my mind - actively DETERRING me from doing something stupid and illegal again.

Also, for the record, I was allowed to EARN the right to work outside the prison ( good behavior / etc... ), for about a dollar a day ( usually removing trash and cleaning roadsides and tending parks and other municipal assets ) and I made more ( triple if I remember correctly ) when on fire duty.

Fire duty started the minute you got on a bus and left the prison, and ended when you got back, even if you did nothing but sit on the bus on the side of some road... you got paid for every hour you were on duty - 24 hours a day / 7 days a week - IT WAS GOOD MONEY ( for being in prison ) and it was a PRIVILEGE... because more than the money ( which was nice to have in prison, believe me ) it allowed you to go OUTSIDE of the prison, which was PRICELESS.

"Pay them for their hardwork and they'll learn they can succeed in life by hardwork, determination and honesty" -- Again I disagree, I learned nothing of the sort, what I learned is this: There are NO SHORTCUTS to success, and I should quit breaking the law and instead become a productive member of society INSTEAD of being a criminal.

Giving criminals (like my former self) better pay and treatment in prison has to be the stupidest idea I've ever heard of. If it wouldn't have been terrible I maybe would still be a criminal, because the deterrent would be insufficient.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#207

Post by mpax »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Wait, you mean privatized prisons are a moral hazard? /s

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#208

Post by skybrian »

nemo44x wrote: post #171
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

The alternative is sitting inside all day. Having something to do at least lets you get out and make your day more interesting.

Oh come on. Fighting forest fires is dangerous work.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#209

Post by dragonwriter »

craftyguy wrote: post #22
lightbyte wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody should be in prison longer than their rehabilitation takes and the focus of their stay should 100% be rehabilitation That would be nice, but our current justice system is not even remotely close to being anything like this. That will take generations of change. You're trying to say we should be at step Z when we haven't even gotten to A yet.

Well, for one, we can rename the "Department of Corrections" to reflect what it really is since 'corrections' is not part of their charter. Step A should be "stop lying to ourselves and face the truth".

> Well, for one, we can rename the "Department of Corrections" to reflect what it really is

Well, we could, but no one wants to sponsor the bill to replace that name with “Department of Vengeance, Torture, Slavery, and Maintenance of th Permanent Underclass”.

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