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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#191

Post by [deleted] »

emodendroket wrote: post #97
fzeroracer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison! If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

Well, that's the core of the disagreement -- some people think prisons should be purely punitive.

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#192

Post by ForrestN »

As much as I wish for incremental reform of prison conditions for prisoners, it's important never to forget the fundamentally unethical premise of prisons and state punishment, which derives from religious fantasies about good and evil.

Human beings behave according to the combination of their neurology and their conditions. We should do what we can to prevent dangerous behavior and do our best to treat the people who do dangerous things.

Deciding that some people, mostly people who come from historically oppressed groups and from poverty, are bad and deserve to suffer has a toxic effect on the core of our society.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#193

Post by almostdeadguy »

sgslo wrote: post #188
almostdeadguy wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like a horrible person

Why is that? Their post did not advocate for those conditions, nor is it likely that this is the person who originally instituted those conditions.

This person is claiming these things reduce recidivism, it's pretty clear what their position is

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#194

Post by TaylorAlexander »

wongarsu wrote: post #153
ryandrake wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes that the goal of prisons is to keep their customers from returning to prison.

It is clearly the government's responsibility to align the prison's incentives with the best outcome for society. That includes people not reoffending. You are right that currently the US fails in this regard, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.

It’s not clear to me that the government is concerned with improving society.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#195

Post by ghayes »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #128
mywittyname wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all. Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on. Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.

Also, the Constitution is a minimum bound on rights, not a maximum. We don't need to change the Constitution to make just laws.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#196

Post by jupiter90000 »

fipple wrote: post #184
jupiter90000 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would need to be an equivalent or greater effort to help them obtain jobs and nice living spaces outside of prison, otherwise: "Can't find a job out here! I'm gonna go back to prison and get me that sweet $30/hr prison job, where I can afford nice food and place to live. Also if I don't feel like working they'll take care of me." Not to mention, prisons now incentivized to soak up that larger cashflow and get m…

Everything should be much worse on the inside than the outside. You can use your job to get yourself a single cell rather than a shared cell, etc. and since prisoners are largely able bodied men they should be able to make enough money to defeat the cost of their room and board (probably not their guarding).

Prisons often have incentives for good behavior and things prisoners can buy to make things more comfortable for themselves. Is your primary argument that earning more and paying more money for incentives will teach them how to budget money so they know how to do that after release, and that will increase their success upon release?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#198

Post by dragonwriter »

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

> I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”.

A visceral demonstration of decent rewards from legitimate work might reduce recidivism, which seems like a social good but is reducing the labor supply for prison industry and reducing the demand for (and leverage of) correctional officers and other prison employees. Lots of people have lots of money on the line, and the prison labor population is felons, who both can't vote and lack sympathy from those who can. So, the weight of the political pressure is virtually all on one side.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#199

Post by marzell »

prolikewh0a wrote: post #3
Animats wrote: post #2

Yes. I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#200

Post by komali2 »

emodendroket wrote: post #100
lovich wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should prisoners not get minimum wage when everyone else does? How is forcing people to work for less than is levally allowed, in dangerous conditions as well, any different from slavery?

The Constitution explicitly permits slavery as a punishment for crime, to be fair.

Right, it does, but I think this discussion is a moral one, not legal one. Constitution can be changed, like any law, it's just a hell of a lot harder.
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