National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#91

Post by modells » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

It's disgusting but a reality that the 13th amendment loophole expressly permits slavery of convicts. And so the Civil War was won by the South since Plantations 2.0 continue unimpeded. Some counties' DA's lock up as many people as possible in order for officials to earn kickbacks from private prisons run by the likes of GEO Group.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#92

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves:

> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#93

Post by throwawayjava » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #57

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep?

Because taking away someone's freedoms is a serious thing. There should be a high economic cost to society for imprisoning people; it serves as a structural disincentive to over-use of prison.

Perhaps the morality of over-using prison should serve as a sufficient deterrent for society, but the facts demonstrate that this is not the case.

America's very serious incarceration problem needs economic disincentives because the status quo proves that this country is apparently not sufficiently motivated by morality.

And even if you don't accept this argument, it still does not follow that we should under-pay prisoners. We should at the very least pay prisoners market rates and then charge them for the true cost of their incarceration. E.g.,

National average salary for firefighters: $49,330 PLUS (good) health benefits.

National average total cost of incarceration: $31,000 INCLUDING (terrible) health care. And keep in mind that a well-behaved prisoner in a low or medium security facility -- likely the case for those allowed on firefighting crews -- will cost substantially less than the amortized per-prisoner cost.

So even if inmates should "earn their keep", the state is still pocketing on the order of 5 figures per year. Worse still, IMO that money would go a lot further preventing recidivism than any amount of rehabilitation or work ethic.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#94

Post by rayiner » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them. In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores

That's absolutely not true. Parents are legally entitled to use coercion and punishment to force children to pay for their own upkeep. That's one of the key reasons people used to have kids until relatively recently--for help on the farm.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#95

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

The money they're earning is, I guess, intended for the commissary, so instead of just giving you stuff like soap they can make you work for it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#96

Post by tbirrell » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #86

tbirrell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right /to/ life is different from the right /of/ life. The right to life means that no one can deprive you of your life, but neither is society obligated to ensure you have a life. The right of life means that you are owed a life and it must be given to you by the relevant authorities. The reason this is important because the former gives you control over your life, and the latter operates at the whim of the gove…

This seems inconsistent with how, if you are put in prison, the government is obligated to provide you with food and shelter at no cost to you. If you only have a right "to" life in your interpretation, could not the government say, you need to pay out of pocket for food and shelter, and if you can't afford it, it's your fault you're starving to death in a dungeon? And given the potential savings, why don't more gove…

That obligation is separate from the right to life. It falls more under the social contract than human rights.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#97

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #73

zaroth wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison! If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

Well, that's the core of the disagreement -- some people think prisons should be purely punitive.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#98

Post by rayiner » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #88

rayiner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

One is an adult. They have freedoms which we, as a society, have taken away due to whatever offense they have committed (potentially as light as possession of Marijuana). One is a child. They do not have the freedoms which we, as a society, have given them yet due to their age, lack of maturity and lack of means.

What is the logic for giving more preferential treatment to someone who is a ward because they did something bad, versus a child who is a ward despite being completely innocent?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#99

Post by noobermin » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I mean, I think you might understand why people protest Netflix price increases because it affects them. When things affect people personally, they care. That's why prisoners themselves are striking here, to bring attention to their struggle as well as advocate for themselves.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#100

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #72

zaroth wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Why should prisoners not get minimum wage when everyone else does? How is forcing people to work for less than is levally allowed, in dangerous conditions as well, any different from slavery?

The Constitution explicitly permits slavery as a punishment for crime, to be fair.