Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#51

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

asadlionpk wrote: post #42

pmiller2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be an example of something at the same level you advise your customers to use?

To start with: a variant of FizzBuzz (string manipulation, sorting, fibonacci etc). We then combine this with plagiarism checker and code playback for the employer. Which gives them a pretty good signal if to set up an interview or not.

That seems reasonable as far as time commitment. But, problems like that typically have about 2-4 ways to code them, and usually 1-2 obvious ways. Not to mention, it’s going to be a max of maybe 25 lines of code. That makes me skeptical of the plagiarism detector, because it seems like it would either not detect much, or it could end up being overly sensitive.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#52

Post by kowdermeister » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

asadlionpk wrote: post #48

kowdermeister wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These candidate screening portals that make me code in a web IDE are nightmare to me. My main problem with all of them is that I don't have a chance to talk to an interviewer real time to ask questions, express my thought process or go though the problem together. The time limit is usually harsh, once I needed 5 more extra minutes and the system shut down the test, zero points, but I had it coded 90% and the rest was…

I think some simple tweaks by your employer could have made this system more comfortable for you too: - Like giving ample time to the test and then deciding from the report if to approve or reject. - Hidden test cases are to avoid hardcoded solutions. I think these cases don't map to unit tests, they serve a different purpose here.

> Hidden test cases are to avoid hardcoded solutions

If that's the case, it's another way to prove my point that these portals are bad. I would expect that the company checks the submitted solutions so there is little reason to write "if (x == 5) return 1" style code if that's what you meant by hardcoded solutions.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#53

Post by curtis » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

I probably won't ever do a homework assignment again, unless I feel like I absolutely have to. It's not just the time involved, it's the time involved plus the apparent necessity for me to ask what the results were.

It seems obvious to me that if a company asks an applicant to do a homework project, then when the applicant submits the project, the evaluation and feedback (positive or negative) should happen automatically and quickly.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#54

Post by jdlyga » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

I'm 100% more willing to do a take-home coding exercise than sit for grueling whiteboard problems. Preparing for whiteboard problems takes prep time at home too, in fact a lot more so. So homework assignments actually save time.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#55

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

chaddattilio wrote: post #30

daenz wrote: post #11

The title is a little click-baitey, because it suggests full on assault on homework. The actual post is more measured in its criticisms, but basically the idea is: don't use homework as a cop-out for not having a good interview process, and thereby likely wasting everyones time. Personally I like homework, because it allows me to show my strengths (actually writing code that is solid) without being "under the gun" in…

Ya I agree, I was all ready to blast it but then realized it had a couple good pointers in the case that you are gonna offer homework. I do disagree with the premise though. As someone who's worked in the tech field for 15+ years and has been on plenty of interviews, I for one would much rather do a short homework assignment than have to stand in front of a few people and white board shit in real-time. Here are reaso…

Unfortunately the homework project is usually followed by an in-person whiteboard hazing, which nullifies those benefits. I recently interviewed with a well known tech mini-giant who admitted that my homework assignment was among the best they’ve received, but still flunked me based on the in-person slugfest so YMMV.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#56

Post by sixstringtheory » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

wirrbel wrote: post #49

icedchai wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but totally unenforceable... It's a non-issue. Developers are not slaves, and you cannot prevent them from doing outside work while looking for other jobs.

Don't know about the US but here it would be reason enough for my employer to terminate me right away. This is the default for employments. For work on the side, I need to ask my employer for permission. My employer will then be concerned that all labour protection laws will not be violated, which for example means that my employer must accept that I might not be able to work overtime for them, with a side contract,…

In terms of hours per day worked, what is the actual difference between doing an unpaid take-home test? Signing a contract is just being honest about the time it's going to take to learn about the candidate.

What about onsite interviews, do you have to tell your supervisor that is the reason you are taking off work? Would they be OK with that?

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#57

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #55

chaddattilio wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya I agree, I was all ready to blast it but then realized it had a couple good pointers in the case that you are gonna offer homework. I do disagree with the premise though. As someone who's worked in the tech field for 15+ years and has been on plenty of interviews, I for one would much rather do a short homework assignment than have to stand in front of a few people and white board shit in real-time. Here are reaso…

Unfortunately the homework project is usually followed by an in-person whiteboard hazing, which nullifies those benefits. I recently interviewed with a well known tech mini-giant who admitted that my homework assignment was among the best they’ve received, but still flunked me based on the in-person slugfest so YMMV.

Name and shame. This is disgusting.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#58

Post by wirrbel » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #3

As a candidate, I kind of like the homework thing. It's a lot closer to what you'd actually be doing on the job compared to white board tests, and interviewing is a pretty big time commitment on both sides so I don't feel taken advantage of if it's not crazy (the interviewer has to spend a lot of time on it too) Also, I think it's really a stretch to call it abusive . If you feel like the test is too much of a time c…

As someone who sat in interviews on the hiring side (or in the office with a colleague they hired) I must say that there homework was the best predictor for a candidates performance. CV, resume, does often not say much about a candidates programming skill and style.

I think for some candidates it really was a way to get hired when we wouldn't bothered to invite them for an interview (across the country).

I do think homework shouldn't be send out as a default by the recruiter. And the hiring party should make clear about the intention.

A homework should not be done on company product code, and it should be in some way standardized, i.e. we had a pool of 4 homework exercises that we send out depending on profile.

As a candidate I like these exercises if they are not too big. I have applied somewhere once and they asked me to read a 16 pages journal article within 4 days, to present. (It was not a job in academia but industry). In the end I think I was rejected because coming from a different field than the interviewer I emphasized the wrong aspects for him. They were not aware of some aspects I presented and would have expected from a candidate. So there is a danger in vetting candidates this way. Just because you have them time, they don't need to be a copy of you .

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#59

Post by jdlyga » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

gamache wrote: post #2

Candidates who don't have a portfolio with code I can look at: hope you like homework. I don't like asking for unpaid labor, but I also won't risk my team blowing hours interviewing someone who has no chance of being successful here.

Portfolio of what? I'm not a graphic designer. I'd love to be able to save great code that I've written over the years. But it's all covered by license agreements, NDA's, security clearance, etc. So unless you're exclusively looking at amateur projects or open source developers, that's not a good business plan.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#60

Post by iaw » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

icedchai wrote: post #32

ghaff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Supervisor had candidate sign mutual-NDA, work for hire at $X/hr rate & IP assignment agreement on docusign. This would be a violation of the candidate's employment contract at many companies.

Perhaps, but totally unenforceable... It's a non-issue. Developers are not slaves, and you cannot prevent them from doing outside work while looking for other jobs.

It's a double red flag:

1) If a potential hire is willing to violate their current employment contract they'll be willing to violate any contract you have with them.

2) If a company is happy to trounce into a legal gray area because it's "unenforceable" it may indicate some ethical questions about their leadership.