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Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

github.com

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Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#411

Post by jjoonathan »

dahart wrote: post #395
tripzilch wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Jerk" is a pretty mild word to express dissatisfaction. I would maybe ascribe it to a mismatch in expected decorum, hardly call it toxic. Like, do you expect a church or an informal conversation among peers? Or if you will, a cathedral or a bazaar? :) And it was just one comment .. "We're all adults" goes both ways, let's not fall all over ourselves because of a little mildly bad word. Personally I don't think that'…

> “Jerk” is a pretty mild word to express dissatisfaction. I certainly wouldn’t defend it. It’s not toxic because “jerk” is a bad or particularly strong word by itself, it’s toxic because calling someone a jerk is a personal attack, and it’s a judgement call that is purely mean spirited and doesn’t address any concerns. It doesn’t explain the frustration, it’s escalating things in a negative way, and it’s an insult.…

It's not a personal attack if it is directed at a company or the actions of a company rather than at a person.

Its purpose is not to explain the frustration but to signal the intensity while clarifying the attribution: the person making the comment believes that Docker acted knowingly against their interest and does not buy the excuse that Docker put forward. I challenge you to express the same concepts with the same clarity in five times as many words.

I contest that name-calling is not an escalation over doublespeak.

Finally, whether or not something is socially acceptable is up to society, not to you.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#412

Post by estesp »

presscast wrote: post #356
madmax96 wrote: post #334

I get it. I hate login-walls too. The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard, etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has thei…

With all the complaining and name-calling, I'm quite surprised that nobody has proposed forking the project and maintaining a tracking-free version. Certainly, it would appear as if there's a demand for such a project.

What project? I'm assuming most of this commentary is regarding the Docker for Mac and Docker for Windows products which are an assembly of a significant number of open source projects: OCI's runc, CNCF containerd, CNCF Kubernetes, CNI provider, the docker/cli project as well as docker compose and kubectl binaries built for the host OS, the Docker CE engine built and packaged in a VM run by LinuxKit, xhyve, DataKit, VPNKit (all open source projects). I guess you could fork all those, but since many of them are not even controlled by Docker I'm not sure what the purpose would be.

What I hope is relevant from the long list of projects that I just mentioned is that a company has spent a significant # of engineering years assembling, packaging, and supporting that combination in a way that makes it dead simple to do container-based development on non-Linux systems; mostly focused on developer laptops. No one else has that capability. It is a wide open field if anyone else wants to spend that same effort and time assembling a popular and free product that makes all that work together seamlessly on a Mac or Windows system.

I am not saying I don't have an opinion on whether it's good or bad to make people sign in to download this free product. That is a company's prerogative who controls that product, and market forces will determine whether people will deal with such additions/changes. I of course would love to see direct downloads not impeded by such a change, but that's just my opinion. The silliness of HN is revealed when people start listing a bunch of other totally unrelated projects (cri-o, rkt, containerd) which don't provide any of the functionality of Docker for Mac or Docker for Windows. I say that as a huge proponent and maintainer of containerd. Again, if there is any other offering that makes that possible out of the box for Mac and Windows-based developers, then people are free to get behind that. To me, the only alternatives are to throw a VM together with Docker, Kubernetes, and whatever else you want and hack together the scripting and updating to make it work for you, and Docker nor anyone else are preventing or impeding anyone from doing just that.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#415

Post by piva00 »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #382
jjoonathan wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An astounding level of toxicity? One person called the company "jerks" without singling anyone out. Another posted a rage meme to express their displeasure. The overwhelming majority of the hundreds of comments were even more restrained. Perhaps I'm missing some of the more "choice" comments but as a whole I have far more of a problem with the official corporate-speak than the reactions too it.

Two wrongs don't make a right. "Jerks", as a comment, is purely subtractive. We're all adults. There are plenty of critiques to their action and their defense. Let's use our words to make reasoned arguments rather than just lashing back.

Exactly, we are all adults, this kind of non-answer-marketing-speak: "we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward" is dishonest. I, as an adult, would definitely call someone who gives me this sideway kind of answer a jerk.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#416

Post by yebyen »

aqme28 wrote: post #357
madmax96 wrote: post #334

I get it. I hate login-walls too. The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard, etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has thei…

For the _most_ part I don't see what was so toxic about it. But compare it with the corporate response. Doing this kind of thing without warning to loyal customers and then being dismissive about it is also very toxic.

I disagree with the decision, and I am a Docker user, but I'm not sure I agree with calling them "customers."

For the record, I skimmed the discussion too, and I don't understand "astounding level of toxicity" either.

What do you call a person who dismisses your valid concern and declines to respond to perfectly plain, honestly formulated questions in good faith? That's a jerk.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#417

Post by techntoke »

piva00 wrote: post #415
acjohnson55 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two wrongs don't make a right. "Jerks", as a comment, is purely subtractive. We're all adults. There are plenty of critiques to their action and their defense. Let's use our words to make reasoned arguments rather than just lashing back.

Exactly, we are all adults, this kind of non-answer-marketing-speak: "we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward" is dishonest. I, as an adult, would definitely call someone who gives me this sideway kind of answer a jerk.

And after you call them out for their lies, they will say you're toxic to the community for suggesting that they're not being genuine.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#418

Post by user5994461 »

blub wrote: post #350
madmax96 wrote: post #334

I get it. I hate login-walls too. The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard, etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has thei…

Pulling this kind of crap on customers also reflects poorly on us as a professional community. Which other profession steals so much personal data from others through manipulation and trickery? So all in all it looks like we're all part of a low standars professional community that should be perpetually embarrassed of itself.

As a professional, you should realize that you are not a customer of Docker, you are a user that provides them no value.

They have little revenues and an over valuation to justify, while being attacked from all sides by competitors (Google, AWS, RedHat, Pivotal). Docker is in a bad position and they are desperate.

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#419

Post by [deleted] »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #403
sethhochberg wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're indeed giving away Docker for free, but part of the reason I hypothetically want Docker in the first place is that I trust the people distributing it to not do anything underhanded with their flagship tool's position as a product which runs thousands of other businesses' infrastructure. There is a certain degree of trust involved in using a product like Docker since it is so critical to a businesses' operatio…

So you have a complete attitude of entitlement that your preferred software must be delivered to you on your terms according to common convention. Nobody is permitted to act otherwise or we're gonna have ESR storm their office and take names. You're not a Berkeley grad are you?

[deleted]

Re: Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

#420

Post by hu3 »

ManoMarks wrote: post #408

Hi I head up Docker Developer Relations. There are plenty of ways to get Docker CE without logging Docker Store. See my comment on GitHub for more details. https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue...

As someone pointed out in the Github issue, Docker Toolbox is legacy. I'm not sure how I feel about recommending outdated software to Mac and Windows. It's also slower and not the default way to get Docker.
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