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Who needs democracy when you have data?

technologyreview.com

21–30 of 113 posts

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#21

So what's the use of all this fancy data if they can't have accurate statistics? That should have been the basis of scientific management?

I laughed.

The Chinese government has the accurate version of all data, what is published to the world is false and has different purposes

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#22

So what's the use of all this fancy data if they can't have accurate statistics? That should have been the basis of scientific management?

Columbus kept two logbooks, one with his ships' real positions, and another with falsified positions to show his men so they wouldn't become discouraged.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#23
An interesting perspective. I would like to understand more in depth the history in China of how influence has been gained and how ordinary people were able to affect the local politics. In the English/Germanic tradition, we might have a parley-ment, or a town hall, or a Thing.

I wonder what the comparable system in China was? Does anyone have some in depth knowledge here? (happy to rtfm if one is available)

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#24
> Uighurs are required to install government-­designed tracking apps on their smartphones, which monitor their online contacts and the web pages they’ve visited.

Appalling as this is, I'm surprised the government needs to do this at all, given the assumption that WeChat or Tencent would already have all this information and be required to make it readily available. Then again, maybe the visible intrusiveness is the point: Han get spied on invisibly through social media and mobile carriers; Uighurs have mandatory app installs to constantly remind them who's in charge.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

> clearly not a better alternative. To what, though? What's the choice here? Give a few people even more power without having to be voted in? Who decides which people get all the power? What if they're worse? How do we get rid of them? Is a bloody revolution or decades of dictatorship really the same as having elections where the votes don't always make the best choices?

Thank you. Democracy is not about guaranteeing competent government, or government that agrees with you. Democracy is about avoiding civil wars. I think people forget this, and forget how hideous civil wars can be, because it's been so successful.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#26
post #2

The people inside the democracy. They need democracy.

Do they? Can you really establish a rational need for democracy, or are you just running on cultural reflex?

If you take this question as me saying we shouldn't have democracy, maybe it's reflex.

It's an interesting question. Democracy isn't an end in itself, but rather a means to an end. What is that end (or those ends)? How else can those ends be achieved?

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#27
post #22

So what's the use of all this fancy data if they can't have accurate statistics? That should have been the basis of scientific management?

Columbus kept two logbooks, one with his ships' real positions, and another with falsified positions to show his men so they wouldn't become discouraged.

Columbus was one man, here you have an enormous organization: Are you sure that all decision-makers know the correct statistics and not the falsified one? Are there more than two levels of truth here - does the academy of sciences have the same figures as the central committee? What about the ministries and regional authorities? This madness must be creating its own challenges, so to speak. You never know if the numbers that one is looking at are correct - the job of Mandarin is not an easy one.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#28
post #23

An interesting perspective. I would like to understand more in depth the history in China of how influence has been gained and how ordinary people were able to affect the local politics. In the English/Germanic tradition, we might have a parley-ment, or a town hall, or a Thing. I wonder what the comparable system in China was? Does anyone have some in depth knowledge here? (happy to rtfm if one is available)

My, likely flawed, understanding is that the Chinese trust the government more than the west have a history of doing. The mentality is something more like a family elder, if i have understood things correctly.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#29
Appropriate background for any claims of unbiased decision making based on statistics:

https://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/LieStat/

The numbers can be completely accurate, but the interpretation will always be biased. Also - "USA Temperature: can I sucker you":

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17744886

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

> clearly not a better alternative. To what, though? What's the choice here? Give a few people even more power without having to be voted in? Who decides which people get all the power? What if they're worse? How do we get rid of them? Is a bloody revolution or decades of dictatorship really the same as having elections where the votes don't always make the best choices?

I don't know. I didn't offer an alternative, and I'm not sure that there is one. I only pointed out that from the GP's viewpoint, these examples of democracy reflecting the will of the people (Trump, Duterte, Brexit) are not having positive impacts on society. I don't believe they should be held up as examples of democracy at work, but rather as unfortunate failures of democratic systems.
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