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Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

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Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#201

Post by seem_2211 »

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

Sales recruiter here: yep, companies will not sponsor visas for salespeople at all.

Also, New Zealander working on getting his Greencard: it's a real bummer seeing what some of the bigger tech companies have done with the H1B visa in the past 10 years. They've really abused it and ruined it for everyone.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#202

Post by plicense »

hayksaakian wrote: post #123
mvc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth i…

The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive. The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could. "No immigrat…

> The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances.

FYI - you can switch jobs in H1B. I don't live in the USA, but everyone I know who is from my home country (India) and is on a H1B and in tech, have switched jobs atleast once (mostly between FB, Google, Twitter, LinkedIn, Microsoft and Amazon).

OTOH, if you're talking about L1 Visa (which is NOT a lottery system), then everyone I know who is on L1 (interestingly they are all at Amazon and Microsoft), then I agree - none of them have switched jobs so far.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#203

Post by throwaway28473 »

bediger4000 wrote: post #191
throwaway28473 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the reason matter? If Cisco isn’t competitive, they die. How do you propose they stay in business when Huawei is selling the same thing for half the price?

I dunno, maybe get Trump to executive order lower salaries for Cisco employees? That would be roughly equivalent to the Chinese situation. Alternatively, the USA as a country could put some effort into education, so as to be self-sufficient in available, skilled workers. But you're simplifying things - do we really know that lack of cheap Indian H1-B or L1 workers is what's killing Cisco? No. We don't even know that…

I don’t agree that Chinese labour is cheaper is because the government forces people work for low salaries. Sure there is a lot of intervention, but that’s a stretch. In any case, using your example, there are Indian, Vietnamese and Turkish workers that are willing to do the work Cisco needs at a cheaper price than Cisco is required to pay in America. If Cisco doesn’t recruit them, a competitor does and that competitor gains a material advantage over Cisco. Some companies and industries can absorb the inefficiency better than others, and it might not kill them immediately, but in the long run forcing your country’s businesses to operate uncompetitively is very bad.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#204

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

Aloha wrote: post #144
fjsolwmv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the farms, even basic laws banning hiring illegal immigrants get immediately blocked by a coalition of pro-immigration activists and big companies in the industry.

Without illegal immigrants crops would literally rot in the fields. I don't like illegal immigration, I'd rather there be a easy legal program to allow temporary workers, but there isn't, and I like eating.

There is a legal guest worker program for unskilled agricultural labor: H-2A. It's not as cheap as hiring itinerant work crews with no visa, though.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#205

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

> the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech The immigration debate suffers from overgeneralisation. Illegal immigration is a different problem from legal immigration. And short-term skilled migrants are unlike long-term skilled immigrants. Short-term migrants, i.e. those with no intention of staying in the U.S. long-term, probably depress American wages. Skilled imm…

[deleted]

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#206

Post by closeparen »

remarkEon wrote: post #175
baddox wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I am explicitly not making a semantic argument. I made my point about citizenship clear, and it does not depend on any particular definition of the word “American.” I am saying that the choice of legal definition of citizenship is arbitrary, not that it is poorly-defined. Legal definitions vary a lot from country to country. Again, I’m saying it’s a bad choice for the threshold at which a government should pro…

Because without some distinction of who has responsibilities and obligations to the Sovereign state then we can't have any sort of consistency at all in how we govern ourselves. This is a concept that has deep philosophical underpinnings, coming from Aristotle to Plato and elsewhere. To put in bluntly: Citizens have skin in the game in a way "inhabitants" don't. If the social fabric of a nation-state starts to break…

We're not talking about tourists here. Immigrant workers routinely become married homeowners and parents with extensive personal and professional networks in the US and few links to their countries of origin. My long-tenured H1B coworkers would do no better upon moving to India or China than I would, save for language skills. But that's moot anyway. If the US decides to kick them out and they have to give up their current lives anyway, we'll move them to a third country with deterministic approval for skilled workers, like The Netherlands.

Americans can flee to Canada or any number of other countries which open their doors to us, just as the draft-dodgers did when the "social fabric of the nation-state broke down."

I agree it's weird to blow up citizenship as a concept. We should be talking about making citizenship actually possible for the people who are committed to it, not locked away behind quotas and waiting lists.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#208

Post by conanbatt »

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

> The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech.

We will build the most fantastic firewall ever made, and we will make the foreign engineers pay for it!

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#209

Post by conanbatt »

Bucephalus355 wrote: post #157
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech The immigration debate suffers from overgeneralisation. Illegal immigration is a different problem from legal immigration. And short-term skilled migrants are unlike long-term skilled immigrants. Short-term migrants, i.e. those with no intention of staying in the U.S. long-term, probably depress American wages. Skilled imm…

I think there are differences. However over the last 20 years, most immigration, of both kinds, have been about one thing: reduced labor costs. At the risk of downvotes, I’m going to include something Steve Bannon said on MSNBC last night about legal immigration. He made this point that it makes no sense for America to keep letting the best and brightest of the world in / draining them from everywhere else. Why aren’…

> However over the last 20 years, most immigration, of both kinds, have been about one thing: reduced labor costs.

You mean to increase them. Thats the only point of restricting immigration, to increase the salaries of a few, at the cost of the many.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#210

Post by conanbatt »

seem_2211 wrote: post #201
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

Sales recruiter here: yep, companies will not sponsor visas for salespeople at all. Also, New Zealander working on getting his Greencard: it's a real bummer seeing what some of the bigger tech companies have done with the H1B visa in the past 10 years. They've really abused it and ruined it for everyone.

Why not increase the visa quota, or better yet, remove it altogether, since all the H1b Visas are people with job offers, with an employer that wants them.

Also, you cant get an H1B for sales. Ask the U.S. Government about that, they put that restriction.

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