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Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

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Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#121

Post by remarkEon »

baddox wrote: post #112
akarma wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers. One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your nei…

> an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people And people who are living and working in America are American, they may just not be citizens. Citizenship is itself an arbitrary legal distinction made by the government. The vast majority of citizens received their citizenship by being born in the country rather than by any effort or merit on their part. So the claim becomes "an American com…

>And people who are living and working in America are American, they may just not be citizens.

Since when? I have literally never heard this. This is a patently absurd claim to make. Just because someone lives here does not mean they are "American", unless you think that all of the inputs to national identity are vapid, meaningless attributes that are completely transferable.

>We're talking about work visas, which means those people move here and thus become your neighbors, so you'd have to extend that "natural tribal instinct" defense beyond place of residence.

Just because someone has moved in next door does not mean they are now "part of your tribe". This has never been true throughout history, and it will not magically become true today regardless of the outcome of this immigration debate.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#122

Post by akshat_h »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #93
cc-d wrote: post #75

Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended. The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.

While something like that would help mitigate the abuse vector (although the number would have to be higher - $150k is not much in Bay area tech), it introduces its own set of problems in the other direction, because now only the most profitable companies will be able to hire foreign labor. I know that's the point, but as long as the market fails to account for positive externalities, positions like nurses and teache…

AFAIK, the number considered is salary, so the number is decently high, even for bay area. There are some exceptions like Netflix, but a lot of companies pay majority in equity, especially at higher salary levels.

I don't know how easy/difficult would it be for companies to move from equity based compensation to normal salary though, if something like that is implemented.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#123

Post by hayksaakian »

mvc wrote: post #119
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth i…

The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive.

The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances.

Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could.

"No immigration restrictions" and 100% immigration restritions are both better solutions than the status quo.

I personally believe more lenient immigration laws will help everyone.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#124

Post by [deleted] »

DrJokepu wrote: post #90
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

> is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Just to be clear: people on H-1B are not immigrants as it is a non-immigrant visa. They only become immigrants if and when they adjust status and get a green card at which point none of the limitations you listed will apply anymore.

[deleted]

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#125

Post by oh_sigh »

daviddavis wrote: post #4
oh_sigh wrote: post #3

Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

Did you read the article? It’s literally the first sentence.

Yes. The article says that they pay immigrant visa holders less, not that paying them less is the reason that they supposedly did this:

> The DOL’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs determined that the technology firm secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens for certain jobs and paid the visa holders at a lower rate than their American counterparts, according to the sources.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#126

Post by craftyguy »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #85
ekianjo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not hire the best no matter where they come from? I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy.

" I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy." Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they serve the community in some way. Ergo, if corps serve only the benefit of shareholders and not really consumers or anyone else ... and the population derives no benefit ... then those people would vote to disable the very…

> Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they serve the community in some way.

Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they provide them with a beneficial service/product(s). I seriously doubt most citizens/consumers understand (or care about) the philanthropy implied by your statement. Do you really think people around the world would stop using google because they prefered to hire non-local folks? Some super small minority of folks (the 'locals') might care, but the vast majority of their customer base would be none the wiser.

> and not really consumers or anyone else ... and the population derives no benefit ... then those people would vote to disable the very concept of incorporation

No, they'd go bankrupt because their business model didn't include a viable way for them to survive.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#127

Post by refurb »

oh_sigh wrote: post #3

Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

As someone who was an H1-B holder, it wasn’t due to salaries as I was better paid than most.

For the Infosys companies, I could see lower wages as a driver.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#128

Post by gnu8 »

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

How can we help the Infosys workers unionize and demand the same wages that American workers get? This would solve everyone's problem.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#129

Post by akshat_h »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #38
leereeves wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is that they have no bargaining power because their continued stay in the US is at the whim of their employer. That good for the employer, not good for workers.

That’s a consequence of the US’s particular implementation of talent visas (H1B being tied to employer), not an argument against attracting high skilled workers. (I think most people on this forum would agree H1B needs reform ?)

As an H1B, while there is employer tie in at some level, I am free to change jobs. What I am not free to do is to stop working. That fear certainly does indirectly result in lesser job mobility.

For example, opportunities like say going to Recurse Center, or having the freedom to have a decently long sabbatical etc. even with a 6 month emergency fund are not available. The other thing is no freedom to pursue any other job, i.e working on a startup idea during the evenings or weekend, or writing a technical book etc. for money is not allowed.

There are certainly issues with the H1b system, i.e. the lottery, low salary cap, multiple applications per person to game the system etc, but employer stickiness is not one of them, at least for people who are qualified.

The major problem is due to long wait for green card for people from China, and almost impossible wait for people from India. My friends who were not born in these two countries have been able to get a green card within about a year, after getting an H1B, while I am looking at a more than 20-30 year wait.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#130

Post by WalterSear »

When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.
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