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Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

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Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#101

Post by dmix »

toast_coder wrote: post #81
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

You think this only effects IT? You think salary negotiations are somehow immune to those same price pressures when we are dealing with the ppl who mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms?

The OP likely is talking about tech because it's what he knows. But generally, as a Canadian who has hired immigration lawyers and knows the US immigration process well, you are never getting into the US to "mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms"... almost all the long term Visas require an advanced degree (4yrs of university) or equivalent in experience in an industry in high demand (doctors, engineers, etc).

You may be mistaking illegal immigration with legal.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#102

Post by ctrlaltdestroy »

jcafe wrote: post #19

Almost ironic that this article is from Bloomberg. Recently interviewed with them for a software engineer role and the only american I talked to out of 6 people, was the recruiter.

So the most logical conclusion you arrived from just one observation is that H1B workers are paid less?

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#103

Post by briandear »

kevin_b_er wrote: post #21

Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily. This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are cheaper than normal workers. When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always acceptable... unless you are caught.

That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price?

The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#104

Post by cc-d »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #93
cc-d wrote: post #75

Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended. The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.

While something like that would help mitigate the abuse vector (although the number would have to be higher - $150k is not much in Bay area tech), it introduces its own set of problems in the other direction, because now only the most profitable companies will be able to hire foreign labor. I know that's the point, but as long as the market fails to account for positive externalities, positions like nurses and teache…

If a company values the skillset and knowledge of a potential immigrant at less than $150k yearly (~3 "highly specialized knowledge" employees at worst), they should utilize immigration channels not designed exclusively for poaching the top 0.1% from other countries TO FULFILL ROLES WHICH CANNOT BE FULFILLED BY US WORKERS DUE TO LACK OF SKILLED PERSON(s).

And I agree that $150k is probably on the low end for tech, but I wanted to name a conservative amount which takes into consideration pay across all industries. Whatever we do, we should __Start__ with that, and then further modify requirements/restrictions as deemed necessary.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#105

Post by stale2002 »

yanslookup wrote: post #68
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #51

It seems like a good solution to H1B abuse is to get rid of the lottery and move towards a bid system, but the "bid" is the foreign worker's salary. This will solve the wage suppression issue, and will grant access to talent to companies that are willing and able to pay for it.

"They" are already designing this and it'll make the problem worse not better. They will keep the 4 DoL skill levels used for H1B and put caps at each level. The extra twist is it will be in the shape of a pyramid where there are fewer highly skill slots but enough for the Google's, and then a lot more for the lower levels. So that company that was continually denied their $55k level 4 "senior dev" in Dallas in the l…

Then don't adjust it based on location.

Highest salary wins. No low level people would get it, as it would be bidding accross the board. If you aren't willing to pay that scientist 150K, then you lose the bid to the software engineer hired in the Bay area.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#106

Post by briandear »

tfolbrecht wrote: post #88

I'm curious to see what happens if a company like Huawei enters the US networking hardware market after cutting its teeth. Are we supposed to go with Cisco out of patriotism? Is the general public going to petition the government for protectionism? I also wonder how long it takes wage suppression to propagate out into lower demand and shrinking GDP growth.

I would go with Cisco because I wouldn’t trust a company that’s essentially a commercial arm of the Chinese MSS.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#107

Post by gedy »

imbusy111 wrote: post #92
uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American. USA is the land of immigrants and as long as the best people come to US, it is the place to be. Ban the immigrants and the country loses its edge.

> You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American.

You seem to forget that there is citizenship.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#108

Post by adventured »

tanilama wrote: post #64

If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare to their executives bonuses.

It would be drastically greater in fact. The issue at the heart of this story is big enough without requiring exaggeration.

Cisco has 70,000 employees. Pay them all $5,000 more and it's $350 million every year (Cisco of course can in fact afford that).

Cisco's CEO made $16.7 million in 2017. $1.2m in salary, $2.5m in bonus, $12.8m in stock. He's the highest compensated executive at Cisco.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#109

Post by throwaway917100 »

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

There are a lot of immigrants in other fields are well.

Sales maybe not as the skill required for sales is very hard to measure (maybe thats why).

Marketing: High level marketing executives are transfered to US regularly. Also I maybe wrong but they can come under the artist visa if they are related to anything artistic and don't need H1B.

Teaching: High school salaries are pathetic and high schools wont even apply for an H1B. A lot of professors in good universities are immigrants. A lot researchers in Top universities are also immigrants.

Law : The problem is that you have to do your law degree here to get entry into law, but I have seen a lot of immigrants doing that.

Not in your list but Medicine: A lot of people are in medicine as well even though they have to take an exam (? or something) to see if they are trained according to US standards.

Tech has most number of immigrants because large tech companies are headquartered in US, thats it.

For example, a lot of doctors go to UK, because demand and NIH.

I know a lot of mechanical and chemical engineers being hired by Schlum (even though its technically not a US company).

Go to any US university and you will see a lot of immigrants in any technical fields training and have pretty good jobs lined up for them after graduation.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#110

Post by toomuchtodo »

baddox wrote: post #99
toomuchtodo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies follow the law of the land, written by government for the benefit of its citizens (and not everyone can be a citizen; resource limits, cultural integration, those such issues, see the EU for examples of those challenges and why they limit economic migrants). Companies should obey the law, or leave and be prohibited from operating in the jurisdiction (China does this successfully). Edit: My apologies for rei…

> written by government for the benefit of its citizens But why, or perhaps more importantly, why should this be the case? Why should citizenship (which is itself an arbitrary legal distinction made by the government) mean a person is more deserving of anything than non-citizen residents? It's not like naturalized citizens did anything to earn their citizenship.

Because citizens are stakeholders in their government. Everyone else is not. Naturalized citizens earn their citizenship through a well defined process [1].

[1] https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36212

> The decision to apply is a significant one. Citizenship offers many benefits and equally important responsibilities. By applying, you are demonstrating your commitment to this country and our form of government.

> Support and defend the Constitution. Stay informed of the issues affecting your community. Participate in the democratic process. Respect and obey federal, state, and local laws. Respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others. Participate in your local community. Pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities. Serve on a jury when called upon. Defend the country if the need should arise.

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/citizenship-right...

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