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Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

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Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#51

Post by Retric »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39
Retric wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant potion of this is an end run around immigration law. Cleaning companies need to compete with companies willing to employ illegal immigrants for very low wages which drives down the costs below what companies like IBM would pay people. Change some of these loopholes and the outsourcing overhead becomes far more significant. Though employing large numbers of part time workers works better at scale so the…

I have heard variants on this as well but haven't seen any actual data or research that supports this notion. If you come across any I'd be interested in reading that. There is a tremendous exposure to legal risk both for the contracting company and the company that hires the contracting company if they employ workers who do not have the right to work in the US. Having worked with IBM's legal department I'm pretty su…

> tremendous exposure to legal risk

In practice that's very rarely an issue. One recent case had Target using a cleaning service that way paying illegal immigrants below minimum wage. The government did not care and the only impact was being forced to pay actual wages. And remember that's the worst case, which means sticking with minimum wage is safe.

Now, IBM/Apple/whatever may take steps to avoid illegal immigrants. But, the market clearing price does not have a simple illegal vs. non separation for jobs. So, companies bidding on work are faced with some hard choices.

PS: Now, if you can find examples of penalties for the big company side of things outside of the most blatant violations I would be curious.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#52

Post by munchbunny »

ilovetux wrote: post #41

As a felon myself working in tech, I find this attitude refreshing. It could work in IT...but would require significant changes to how things currently work. I can't say for sure whether it would be worth it to restructure entire organizations to benefit the disenfranchised, but my instincts are telling me that it would add a reddish hue to the bottom line and thus is unlikely to be adopted. I do think that this sort…

I suspect with IT you run into a general trust issue, since IT often operates in an information-privileged environment.

I would love to see better tools and technical infrastructure for requiring authorization to touch sensitive data, so that people in companies can operate with access to "the information you need but no more." Something like that would both protect customer privacy and de-risk hiring at the entry levels.

It would most definitely make getting access to data tougher for lots of people, but as engineers who are often handling customer data, I think it's a generally more responsible (ethics-wise) approach.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#53

Post by ilovetux »

munchbunny wrote: post #52
ilovetux wrote: post #41

As a felon myself working in tech, I find this attitude refreshing. It could work in IT...but would require significant changes to how things currently work. I can't say for sure whether it would be worth it to restructure entire organizations to benefit the disenfranchised, but my instincts are telling me that it would add a reddish hue to the bottom line and thus is unlikely to be adopted. I do think that this sort…

I suspect with IT you run into a general trust issue, since IT often operates in an information-privileged environment. I would love to see better tools and technical infrastructure for requiring authorization to touch sensitive data, so that people in companies can operate with access to "the information you need but no more." Something like that would both protect customer privacy and de-risk hiring at the entry le…

> so that people in companies can operate with access to "the information you need but no more."

I think SELinux addresses this problem pretty well, but there is no real requirement to give access to developers for a production database when a development database could be setup with test data. I'm not arguing that this is a great idea for IT, but trust has been an issue from the beginning and there are more than a couple of solutions with varying degrees of quality.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#54

Post by eggpy »

pc86 wrote: post #23
dqpb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this pipeline already exists via open source software. Unskilled people are by default allowed to try contributing. As soon as they are actually capable of doing so, they can move up the ranks by getting hired somewhere.

"Work for free until we decide you're worth being paid."

i.e. an internship

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#55

Post by kjeetgill »

Unbeliever69 wrote: post #26
aturley wrote: post #2

I've half joked about doing this for technical positions. I think to make it work you'd need: 1. A strong management system in place that's committed to helping folks succeed. 2. A willingness to honestly evaluate people and let them go if they aren't working out. I've seen enough bad hires even in places that have well planned hiring processes that I'm having trouble believing this would be any worse.

I hire for a tech company and never background or drug check my employees.

Hi. I think you meant to reply to this comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17800066

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#56

Post by dqpb »

pc86 wrote: post #23
dqpb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this pipeline already exists via open source software. Unskilled people are by default allowed to try contributing. As soon as they are actually capable of doing so, they can move up the ranks by getting hired somewhere.

"Work for free until we decide you're worth being paid."

In most cases, I'm firmly opposed to this. For example, I've known several people in psychology and social services careers where they essentially worked unpaid for years before qualifying for their licence. I think that's absurd because it forces you into creating value for others without receiving any of that value back.

However, I'd argue that unpaid contribution to open source software as a way to build reputation is not absurd, because the value you are creating is still available for you to use and benefit from. Additionally, you are free to work on anything you like - something you can't do at an organization which is compelling you to work for free.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#57

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39
Retric wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant potion of this is an end run around immigration law. Cleaning companies need to compete with companies willing to employ illegal immigrants for very low wages which drives down the costs below what companies like IBM would pay people. Change some of these loopholes and the outsourcing overhead becomes far more significant. Though employing large numbers of part time workers works better at scale so the…

I have heard variants on this as well but haven't seen any actual data or research that supports this notion. If you come across any I'd be interested in reading that. There is a tremendous exposure to legal risk both for the contracting company and the company that hires the contracting company if they employ workers who do not have the right to work in the US. Having worked with IBM's legal department I'm pretty su…

>There is a tremendous exposure to legal risk both for the contracting company and the company that hires the contracting company if they employ workers who do not have the right to work in the US.

That's why you layer it so the people taking the risk are little more than hourly employees themselves.

Big corp hire cleaning corp to clean. Cleaning corp hires local cleaner to clean. Local cleaner hires legal worker with plenty of contacts who aren't legal, gives them the cash to get the job done with what ever 'contractors' they want. While local cleaner could technically be found guilty, they'll always through the local legal employee under the bus and rarely ever get prosecuted. At worst they'll be shut down and then they'll just open up under another name. Cleaning corp is effectively immune and can always find a new local cleaner if the previous one is shut down. Big corp might not ever know what is going on, they are just paying someone who handles things for cheaper than directly employing the cleaners (at least cheaper on certain budget reports that they needed to make look better).

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#58

Post by tonyedgecombe »

aturley wrote: post #2

I've half joked about doing this for technical positions. I think to make it work you'd need: 1. A strong management system in place that's committed to helping folks succeed. 2. A willingness to honestly evaluate people and let them go if they aren't working out. I've seen enough bad hires even in places that have well planned hiring processes that I'm having trouble believing this would be any worse.

I think you would need to filter out all the people that apply without knowing what the job entails but it would be interesting to hire based on one of the online assessments.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#59

Post by lliamander »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39
Retric wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant potion of this is an end run around immigration law. Cleaning companies need to compete with companies willing to employ illegal immigrants for very low wages which drives down the costs below what companies like IBM would pay people. Change some of these loopholes and the outsourcing overhead becomes far more significant. Though employing large numbers of part time workers works better at scale so the…

I have heard variants on this as well but haven't seen any actual data or research that supports this notion. If you come across any I'd be interested in reading that. There is a tremendous exposure to legal risk both for the contracting company and the company that hires the contracting company if they employ workers who do not have the right to work in the US. Having worked with IBM's legal department I'm pretty su…

Well, in some states it is illegal to ask a potential employee about their citizenship status.

There are definitely industries in which hiring (suspected, but very likely) illegal immigrants is standard practice.

Re: Greyston Bakery hires on a first-come, first-served basis, no questions asked

#60

Post by dcre »

AndyNemmity wrote: post #22
harlanji wrote: post #13

More should do this. I am blackballed from Silicon Valley from a series of bad employers and have a misdemeanor driving-related arrest, so a Day Labor non-profit that does the same has been my only way of attaining employment. My income has dropped 10x but it’s enough to feed me, and most of my network has turned its back on me. I am hired by executives and doctors for cash now who feel I am wasting my skills too. I…

I don't know how you get blackballed from SV, I've certainly interviewed candidates, and I'd never heard of you, so I would have hired you. I quickly glanced though at your online work, and your portfolio contains you calling a previous manager something that would make sure I'd never hire you. So the only evidence of blackballing is your own. I'd suggest taking it down, and trying more.

re: the portfolio line — wow.
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