Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved • Hacker News Board

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#61

Post by hannob » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #53

melling wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean like the United States or Germany which are increasing or fighting a reduction in coal? https://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-is-set-to-roll-back-restric...

Coal jobs are this bizarre holy grail of right-wing politics in the USA and Germany. It really makes very little sense in a macro view, because renewables are cleaner for the local populace's air and water, and renewables add some 5X-10X more jobs than coal. Coal extraction and processing is increasingly automated, the ole' miner with his pick is a thing of the past - these jobs are stagnant or decreasing in numbers…

> Coal jobs are this bizarre holy grail of right-wing politics in the USA and Germany.

It's far more than a right-wing politics issue in Germany. The most dedicated supporters of coal are within the social democrats and even the left party has some vocal coal supporters in some areas.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#62

Post by adrianN » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #53

melling wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean like the United States or Germany which are increasing or fighting a reduction in coal? https://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-is-set-to-roll-back-restric...

Coal jobs are this bizarre holy grail of right-wing politics in the USA and Germany. It really makes very little sense in a macro view, because renewables are cleaner for the local populace's air and water, and renewables add some 5X-10X more jobs than coal. Coal extraction and processing is increasingly automated, the ole' miner with his pick is a thing of the past - these jobs are stagnant or decreasing in numbers…

Coal jobs are usually available in areas with few alternatives. Whole regions depend on mining. It's hard to tell people that their whole city needs to change jobs when there are none available.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#63

Post by corerius » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #58

merpnderp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We built profitable nuclear plants in the past. One might wonder how with mind bogglingly better designs and a much richer world, we can't afford to build them today. My money is that the blame lies between political reasons and that Nat-Gas is cheap, relatively clean, and wildly abundant energy source in N. America. Right now in N. America you'd be a fool to build anything but a mid-sized Nat-Gas generator which can…

Well that’s interesting, because University of Minnesota ran simulations with MISO that stated batteries and solar would outperform a gas peaker on that grid financially in the next few years. http://energytransition.umn.edu/modernizing-minnesotas-grid-...

Then it shouldn't be a problem at all. The power companies will simply veer towards solar if it's cheaper.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#64

Post by corerius » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

hannob wrote: post #61

WhompingWindows wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal jobs are this bizarre holy grail of right-wing politics in the USA and Germany. It really makes very little sense in a macro view, because renewables are cleaner for the local populace's air and water, and renewables add some 5X-10X more jobs than coal. Coal extraction and processing is increasingly automated, the ole' miner with his pick is a thing of the past - these jobs are stagnant or decreasing in numbers…

> Coal jobs are this bizarre holy grail of right-wing politics in the USA and Germany. It's far more than a right-wing politics issue in Germany. The most dedicated supporters of coal are within the social democrats and even the left party has some vocal coal supporters in some areas.

Sssshhh. You'll ruin the narrative.

It seems to me that the easiest way for a Germany to cut on energy needs is simply by having less people live there. I expect they would have been at negative population growth without shipping in a scad of people.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#65

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:46 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #51

Nasrudith wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how the math works out in terms of mass photovolatics and some sort of night power solution (sufficent wind, pumped storage, or other) vs an expensive nuclear plant at this point.

All nuclear plants are expensive at this point. Until you get modularized reactors that don't face political/public backlash, you'll not see many nuclear facilities built outside of China. Even the nuclear plants we have built in the USA, they are expensive to maintain but provide carbon-free energy, so some true climate hawks are for subsidizing them. As far as new-builds go, look at the absolutely terrible debacle…

Not totally carbon free. Mining uranium still emits carbon, so too the rest if the fuel cycle. It certainly is very low carbon.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#66

Post by beat » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #14

akuji1993 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also we shouldn't forget we're talking about Vietnam. A country that is expected to follow slower (because it's not technologically advanced like some European countries or North America). Them having any kind of goal is a good sign, even though it might not be very ambitious in our understanding. Goals can be adjusted.

Actually I'd expect developing nations to be the first in adopting a clean energy grid. They have massively rising demand, so they're building new power plants all the time and don't have vested interests trying to milk every penny out of old coal plants. They also benefit from technological advances that countries with aging power infrastructure can't take advantage of. It's not like they're forced to re-live the in…

This could be kind of like how a lot of developing countries have excellent cellular phone networks, having mostly skipped the expensive commitment to wire.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#67

Post by selimthegrim » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

corerius wrote: post #63

selimthegrim wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that’s interesting, because University of Minnesota ran simulations with MISO that stated batteries and solar would outperform a gas peaker on that grid financially in the next few years. http://energytransition.umn.edu/modernizing-minnesotas-grid-...

Then it shouldn't be a problem at all. The power companies will simply veer towards solar if it's cheaper.

Tell that to Entergy New Orleans (on the MISO grid) and a population fixated on “local” plants and jobs

Relevant John Oliver clip below:

https://www.theadvocate.com/gambit/new_orleans/news/the_late...

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#68

Post by adventured » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

jabl wrote: post #28

adrianN wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I'd expect developing nations to be the first in adopting a clean energy grid. They have massively rising demand, so they're building new power plants all the time and don't have vested interests trying to milk every penny out of old coal plants. They also benefit from technological advances that countries with aging power infrastructure can't take advantage of. It's not like they're forced to re-live the in…

Developing nations are generally poor compared to developed countries (duh). So they might not be able to afford energy sources with high upfront costs like nuclear, solar, or wind. If you ignore externalities, coal is likely the cheapest, unfortunately. This is exactly what DIDN'T happen with, say, telecom networks. Developing countries skipped directly to mobile telecom, allowing them to save a lot of money by avoi…

I agree with you that poorer developing nations will want to generally avoid high upfront costs to new energy (if they can). Doesn't building new coal plants present high upfront cost just the same?

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#69

Post by radicalbyte » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #35

Brakenshire wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on economics, people will switch if the new technologies are cheaper, or if they face tariffs for not doing their part.

If the west tariffs developing countries there will be an outcry over neocolonialism and forcing the poor countries to our will and whatever. The only thing the west is allowed to do is putting money into developing countries without any guarantees and hope they do something useful with it. It's frustrating.

We pump plenty of money in now for specific infrastructure projects; which is exactly what we should be doing here.

Re: Vietnam Going Solar After Nuclear Power Plants Shelved

#70

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

The biggest advantage of PV energy is that it is almost scale agnostic - a single panel on top of somebody's rooftop is as efficient as one installed in a gigawatt scale plant. This is something no other commercial power source has.

Rather than giving lump sum subsidies, a nation can make much much more by just ironing out feed in rules, and making sure the grid can accommodate that. It takes around 6-8k usd (5kw setup) to make an average Asian single family house energy neutral during summer using Chinese panels (basically we talk about 1 aircon and a fridge).

Now just compare payout periods of such setups.

Now, the last moment that can't be overstated, but almost always forgotten: the economic effects of feed-in tariff gets greatly negated when there is no real time pricing. See, in Asia aircon usage peaks proportionally to insolation, and so is the PV electricity production.